China, Iraq, US alliance, Hicks, Mark Latham Kevin Rudd - Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs and International Security

Radio Interview

Transcript - Super Radio Network - 2 July 2004

Host:           Kevin Rudd, good morning.

Rudd:            Good morning, good to be with you.

Host:            How are you today?

Rudd:            I’m fine. It's been raining cats and dogs here in Beijing over the last couple of days.

Host:            Now the reason that you’re in Beijing is that you're looking at future plans for supplying the energy needs of China, a process which has already begun with the recent liquid gas deal, but there must also be huge opportunities given the ever-increasing demands that China has.

Rudd:            That’s right. This is one of the fastest growing economies in the world. It's already Australia’s third largest trading partner and the Chinese leadership has a plan to grow this economy over the next 20 years by trebling the size of China’s gross domestic product. Now the bottom line is China has huge demands in the future in terms of its energy needs, huge demands in the future in terms of its raw material needs and I've also got to say huge demands in the future in terms of its education needs, as well in terms of specialist education and training. So for Australia this represents a very large potential market. What we say as the alternative government of Australia is that we’ve done OK so far in terms of some resource trade with this country, particularly in iron ore, a big mine in Western Australia Channar which the Labor government of the 80s got China involved in, the current government under Mr Howard has also had success in helping Australian companies secure the natural gas project, the LNG project last year, but we think that that should only just be the start. And what we've recommended here in the speech I gave in Beijing yesterday is that the two countries sit down and work out a long-term, 25-year-long strategy for Australia to become a long-term secure and stable supplier of China’s future energy and resource requirements.

Host:            Are we talking about trying to structure some sort of exclusive deal that would give Australia preferential treatment in supplying China’s energy needs?

Rudd:            Well no, I don't think the Chinese would do that either because in dealing with their own future supply, their own interests would lie in some degree of diversification. So for their future needs they’ll be looking at central Asia, they'll be looking at the Russian far-east, but they are concerned about the long-term security of supply from other parts of the world which might not have had as much political security and predictability as Australia. If we are able to secure through government-to-government broad strategic arrangements for a reasonable share of China’s future energy and raw material needs and its other needs then I think this will place the Australian economy in the future in a very good position. In the speech I made yesterday to the Central Party School at the Chinese Communist Party, which is where this country’s leadership elite are trained, I said that what Australia could do for the next quarter century for China is similar to what Australia was able to do for Japan during the period of the 50s, 60s 70s and 80s of the last century when Australia acted as a long-term secure resource supplier for that country’s economic recovery, development and extraordinary growth during that period.

Host:            Now of course there may be some changes required in the way we do business here in Australia, particularly in terms of the relationship between government and private enterprise. What sort of plans do you have in that area?

Rudd:            Well two of our great Australian resource companies are doing very well here as well. I was recently talking to the head of BHP Billiton and they’ve had a strategic presence in China for a long period of time in terms of, if you like, a corporate diplomatic presence, and they have now gone the next step with some large-scale resource projects. They are doing well but we judge, as the alternative government of Australia, that we, in partnership with Australia’s major resource companies, can simply do a lot better. You see the reality that we are dealing with here in China is that it is still a country where the government, the Chinese Communist Party, plays a huge role in setting this country’s strategic direction. Therefore for that reason and because of this unique characteristic of the Chinese market in the way in which it operates there is a strong role for the Australian government to play in setting long-term strategic frameworks in partnership with Australian private enterprise, in the resource sector, in the energy sector and beyond, with our Chinese counterparts. And that's where we would like to see a much more active, directive and strategic role for Australian governments in the future and that's what we're proposing as the alternative government as far as this country is concerned.

Host:            In fact the Australian newspaper today describes it as an ‘Australian Inc’ strategy, is that a fair enough label to apply to it?

Rudd:            Well I would not back away from that because we all get into short-handing complex proposals I suppose. But when you are dealing with something as large and dynamic and as emerging as the Chinese economy, it’s not just a bit of growth here and a bit of growth there, but an economy in a country which is likely to reshape our entire region over the next quarter century simply because of its size. For those reasons, in my view, we need to take on a ‘Team Australia’ approach between government and the Australian resource, energy and minerals sector and maximise the Australian national interest at this time when there is a unique set of opportunities presenting themselves by the Chinese markets. Chinese leaders have told me in recent days that key strategic decisions will be made in this country within the next two-three years about their long-term sourcing of supply for energy, raw materials and other resources. For those reasons, I take a pretty simple and basic view of it, we’ve got to be in there big time. We’ve done good things in the past but I think we’ve just got to radically now lift our game between government and Australian private companies to make sure we harness the political dimensions of this relationship and thereby add real value to the economic interests which can be served in Australia by expanding our China trade.

Host:            Many people see China as a future superpower, possibly a contender for world domination in the century’s ahead of us, Australia then would be playing a role in creating that superpower wouldn’t we?

Rudd:            Well the peaceful rise of China is a challenge which the Chinese leadership have set for themselves. I believe that Australia's future role will be to work in partnership with China and in the tradition of previous Labor governments; work with China in entrenching in the Chinese government's view the ultimate value of working within the international rules-based system. Whether it’s for the economy through the World Trade Organisation, whether it’s through regional arrangements such as APEC or whether it's on the security level through the principles laid down in the United Nations Charter. Now previous Australian Labor governments have worked very strongly on this question. Prime Minister Hawke and Prime Minister Keating did incredible work in getting China directly involved in the work of APEC and causing China to believe that its long-term and strategic interests lie in working within international rules-based systems and organisations rather than working outside them. That I think is the smart thing for Australia to do in the future and that’s what we would like to do as the alternative government of Australia.

Host:            Many people still hold concerns about China's human rights practices and question how closely involved we ought to be, given our differing views on those matters.

Rudd:            Well let's be very plain about this, China is not a democracy. I’ve been living or working in this country in one capacity or another of the past 20-years, or travelling to it. I lived and worked here in the mid-80s and I’ve been back here most years since then. There’s been enormous changes during that time. China is a politically more liberal environment than it was 20-years ago. Certainly infinitely more politically liberal than it was during the Cultural Revolution. But does that mean China has become a democracy? No, it hasn’t. But I think we need to take a longer term view of this and recognise and identify change where it has occurred and where human rights abuses continue to occur, to be frank and effective in raising these concerns with our Chinese counterparts in Beijing.

Host:            And are we like to have a receptive audience when we raise those concerns, are we more likely if we have this trading relationship?

Rudd:            The key question here is how frank and effective we are under those circumstances. I think often there is a false debate in Australia and other western countries that in China there is only two courses of action - absolute silence and/or open attack. I don't think that’s an intelligent way in which to see our country, Australia’s, future strategic options with China. I believe that there is a middle path we can pursue which maximises the advantages of this relationship with Australia, both in economic and security terms, while at the same time being unapologetic about where we come from within Australia’s own traditions – that is of a robust democracy. And when we have human rights concerns in China, we should be frank in raising those as well.

I think this can be done by effective bilateral diplomacy. There is no magical solution to these things and those who pretend there is are deluding themselves. But I believe that through an intelligent, far-sighted strategic approach, we can maximise Australia’s interests here, our economic interests, our export interests and therefore job creation in the Australian economy and build a stronger bilateral relationship with Beijing, particularly for that day when China does emerge as a great power; but at the same time not compromise what we stand for ourselves as Australians or our key friendships and alliances around the world, like our alliance with the United States.

Host:            Now speaking of the alliance with the United States, very quickly a few other matters around the world. The handover of sovereignty in Iraq occurred this week, what should Australia’s role in Iraq be now?

Rudd:            Well we strongly support this handover of sovereignty to the Interim Iraqi Government. It is something which on our side of politics we have been urging since the end of last year. As the alternative Foreign Minister I visited Baghdad last year and spent sometime talking to Ambassador Bremer and representatives of the then Iraqi Governing Council about how we could ensure that political power was put back into the hands of the Iraqis as soon as possible. As for Australia's future role, I think both sides of politics are agreed that between now and the end of the year there will be a modest Australian military presence. Obviously our plan put forward clearly by Mark Latham is that Australian troops should be withdrawn by the end of the year. What we argue is that when it comes to next year, one of the best forms of assistance Australia can provide to the Iraqi people is to deliver the strongest levels of economic and humanitarian assistance. For example, UNICEF, the World Food Program and the World Health Organisation all have outstanding large-scale commitments to the Iraqi civilian population in what's been an extraordinarily difficult time for them. And we believe as Australians, and this is the reason I had discussions along these lines with the United Nations in New York recently, we believe that as Australians we  can make a large effort to the benefit of the Iraqi people in these economic and humanitarian areas.

Host:            Also, in relation to the United States alliance, the case of Hicks and Habib in Guantanamo Bay takes on a new dimension now given that the application to the Supreme Court in the United States has resulted in Guantanamo Bay detainees being allowed access to the Federal Court system in the United States. What should happen next?

Rudd:            Well on this one I am a little bit cautious in commenting because I am in Beijing and I haven’t been briefed on the details of the US Supreme Court decision. For those reasons I'd just like to be better briefed before making further comment. Plainly the position of the Australian Labor Party for a long, long time is that any individual, including Hicks and Habib, charged with an offence in any place around the world should be given proper access to legal advice, proper access to consular treatment and proper access to a fair trial and we’ve had profound reservations about the applicability of American military tribunals to their case. Remember that Mr Hicks’ military lawyer has also expressed grave reservations about whether or not a military tribunal would provide a fair trial in the circumstances.  But I'd prefer to be better briefed.

Host:            Now finally, and I’m not sure you would have been made aware of this, but there is a lot of talk around today about a forthcoming piece on the weekend which is meant to be a profile on Mark Latham - apparently involving some sort of shocking allegations and revelations. What sort of shape is the Latham leadership in and can it withstand that sort of attack?

Rudd:            Well you'd be surprised to know that here in China that has not made the news so I don’t really have any basis in which to comment. But can I just say that when it comes to Mark Latham’s leadership, what he’s been on about since becoming leader last December and why he’s received such a good reception from the Australian people is that he’s been talking about the future, not the past. He’s been talking about plans for the nation’s future and he hasn't gone down the road of the Liberal Party's eternal preoccupation with the personal dimensions of politics. I think the mood of the Australian people is that they simply want to know what plans we have for the nation’s future. Part of the reason I'm here in China at the moment is to outline some of those plans in terms of the relationship with a country that will fundamentally shape Australia’s future, namely China. They want to know what our plans are for the country's future. They want to know what the government’s plans are for the country’s future and make a choice on that basis. I think indulging in personal politics is frankly not an attractive way to go.