Macarthur electorate, economy, education, national security, bulk billing, health, superannuation, tax, budget, welfare, parenting Mark Latham - Leader of the Opposition

TV Interview with Jennie Brockie

Transcript - Insight, SBS TV - 20 April 2004

You can watch Mark Latham on Insight at Video - Insight, SBS TV (Requires RealPlayer One)

Macarthur Profile

Tonight ‘Insight' is coming to you from the Glen Alpine community centre in the federal electorate of Macarthur. ‘Insight' is here because Macarthur is what's known as a bellwether seat, the kind of seat that decides elections. Since 1949, the party that's won Macarthur has also won government. Macarthur also happens to be just next door to Opposition Leader Mark Latham's own seat of Werriwa. In fact, the Opposition Leader lives here, just down the road. Tonight, Mark Latham has agreed to answer questions from 50 voters in Macarthur chosen by independent research company McNair to represent a cross-section of the electorate. He has no idea what they'll ask and he's agreed to appear on that basis.

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, Mark Latham, welcome to Insight.

MARK LATHAM, OPPOSITION LEADER: Thanks, Jenny, it's great to be here.

JENNY BROCKIE: We'll get to the questions in just a moment, but it seems to me as though James Rixon has summed up at least part of the challenge that faces you. The economy is running pretty smoothly. People remember those 17% interest rates under Labor. And they're not just too sure about you as a leader. What have you got to say to them?

MARK LATHAM: Well, I think it's important to think about the next 20 years of economic growth and how we can continue Australia's pattern of economic strength. A lot of that started with the reforms in the '80s and '90s. Labor was part of that. We like to think that we built the modern Australian economy and we want to keep it growing for the future. That means serious investments in education, the skills of our people will provide the growth for the next 20 years. We need renovation of the Trade Practices Act to ensure that we've got a competitive market economy where people with skills and innovation can prosper and I think we've also got to put some reward for effort back into the Australian economy.
At the moment, some people in this country have got what they call effective marginal tax rates of over 100%. So they work hard, they get stuck in and earn an extra $100 and the Government takes more than $100 back in taxes and withdrawal of social security payments. So that worries me when people have got a disincentive to get stuck in and have a go.

JENNY BROCKIE: So what are you going to do about something like that, for example? What concrete can you do?

MARK LATHAM: Well, we want to bring down the effective marginal tax rates. We've been saying that for some time. The Budget's on in a few weeks time and in our response we'll be putting a heavy premium on incentive, reward for effort, ensuring that certainly no-one in this country who gets stuck in and earns $100 is going to go backwards, which can happen under the current Government. So we've got to correct those problems and put a bit of incentive back in. We've got to grow the economy. You can sort of get complacent and think, "Oh, it's going to happen forever." You've got to have some policies for the future and that's the Labor way.

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, it is over to you, the people of Macarthur. I'd like to take some questions. What do you want to know from this man? What are your reservations? What do you want to know? Yes?

STUDENT: Mr Latham, you mentioned education as being an important issue. I understand that HECS fees have increased by up to 25%, making university less and less of an option to many young Australians. And the recent protests in Sydney demonstrate the strong feelings that students have towards these increases in HECS. What would the Labor Government do to make university more of an option to many young Australians.

MARK LATHAM: Well, we're very committed to reversing the 25% increase in HECS and also expanding the university system with an extra 20,000 places, also an extra 20,000 TAFE places, which are important. We're doing that with a package that's funded by clearing away some government waste and mismanagement and ensuring it's done in a financially responsible way. But basically I want a benchmark in this country that if a young person out there tonight studying hard, working hard, doing the right thing at school, you'll never turn away from your best chance in life - a university education - for financial reasons.

JENNY BROCKIE: Did you pay to go to university?

MARK LATHAM: No, I was fortunate, coming out of the housing estate at Green Valley to have a system that Whitlam had introduced where there weren't the fees and HECS that we have today.

JENNY BROCKIE: And you would have had a moderate form of income support too, yes?

MARK LATHAM: That's true. The other point on how things have changed, my closest university was the University of Sydney. And it was a couple of hours to get there - bus, train, walk - and then a couple of hours to get home. One of the benefits we had in the '80s and '90s was the advent of the University of Western Sydney - the Hawke Government's expansion of the university system. So now my nephews, who live next door to me, they have the chance to go to local universities, as has my wife, and that's a real advantage when you can actually spend time with family or spend time studying instead of commuting.

JENNY BROCKIE: But I wonder if the gentleman here would like university to be free the way it was for you under your possible government. Would you? Is that what you'd like?

STUDENT: It would be great. But I don't know how realistic that would be. But at the moment I know when I come out of university I'm going to have a huge debt. And I know that when I enter the property market - property prices now are, you know, $400,000, $500,000. So for many young Australians, we're just going to be in debt for half of our lives.

MARK LATHAM: Well, we don't want a debt generation. The way it started out, HECS was introduced to help finance the establishment of universities like Western Sydney to give people a local university to go to. But the scheme's now got out of control. With the 25% hike, young people can turn away worried about debt and how can they ever get into home ownership if you start life with heavy debt levels, it makes the home market seem almost impossible.

JENNY BROCKIE: Other questions? Yes, up the back.

MAN: Could I just continue the point about education. What about funding more early school-leaver programs. I mean, at the moment a lot of young people can be excluded from schools after they turn 15. There doesn't seem to be a lot of things happening. There is one over at Minto, which I think you're aware of, called the HYPE program. But I'd like to see more money being pumped in for early school-leaver things, because we have a lot of kids in this area who are just on the streets.

MARK LATHAM: Yeah, I think that's vitally important, because not every student responds warmly to the academic type curriculum. You can get kids dropping out at 13, 14, 15. So you've got to have alternative programs that can keep them interested in learning. So we can't think of the school just as a stand-alone institution. It has to be a hub with a range of learning opportunities.

MAN: Could there actually be some policy implemented by yourself for this to occur? Because I've noticed in other federal elections these kids aren't even being thought about whatsoever and no Government policies are coming out whatsoever about the plight of the young unemployed.

JENNY BROCKIE: And these are kids who can't even get on to the first rung of your ladder of opportunity, can they?

MAN: These are kids that are leaving school and they're basically illiterate.

MARK LATHAM: We've announced a funding source for pathways to post-secondary education that would be promoting the sort of innovation I mentioned - alternative learning places where a 15-year-old can stay engaged with the education system instead of dropping out. I think one of the problems, the education system to some extent has taken a 'one size fits all' approach where we've got to cater for the various ways in which young people learn, and if a young person is excited by working with their hands or the arts and cultural activities or sporting activities, those things can keep them engaged with school and as they develop and get through those sensitive adolescent years, at 17 they might turn back to a more academic curriculum and get through to their leaving and then on to TAFE or university.

JENNY BROCKIE: A lady down in the front row here?

WOMAN: If you were to become prime minister of Australia, what would you do to make it fair between the education system between public and private, because there is a big difference between what public systems get and what private systems get. Public systems get basically nothing, plus they get government grants plus they also have their fees from what they have to be paid by parents, whereas in state schools, they don't have to pay these fees to go to school and they don't get enough government funding as what they should to provide these disadvantaged people and children their education that they have a right to.

MARK LATHAM: Well, we want to introduce a needs-based funding system that says there's a national –

WOMAN: Also where are you going to get the money? Who are you going to hit - the taxpayers?

MARK LATHAM: Well, there are some schools that are overfunded - the Kings School, Trinity Grammar here in Sydney. That's money that would be better used supporting needy non-government schools here in Macarthur. There are needy non-government schools just down the road - parish schools, independent Christian schools that need support. But so too there are also needy government schools that need assistance. So we need to get a needs-based funding system that says here's a national standard for funding our schools and the schools that are above it, to redistribute that money to the schools that need the extra support, so they can all come up to the standard and we can give parents the most important guarantee that they can have that every school is going to be a good school with the resources, the teaching expertise, the discipline, the programs, to give their kids a good start in life.

WOMAN: Would they also have the quality of what a private school has - the quality of what they have in a private school in a public school? Would they have the same amount of quality to do with textbooks, for instance. Like when I went to high school, I went to high school in the public system and I also went in the private system to start off with, and the standard even just alone with the textbooks they were like outdated and all the rest of it. Are you going to do standards like to make it equal in that?

MARK LATHAM: That's the point of having a national standard right across the country and to bring all the schools up to it. There are some great government schools that get wonderful results. But we also need to be honest - there are some that are really struggling. So they need extra resourcing, the teaching programs, the expertise, the discipline, to get the results. So we can't pretend that every government school is doing fantastic - it's not. We've really got to try and help those schools. But so too there are also needy non-government schools. In my electorate and also here in Macarthur, you can visit a government, non-government school, and think, "Gee, they need some more help."

WOMAN: You stated about discipline, what rights are you going to give back to the teachers to be able to discipline children. I know around here kids are pretty much a handful and the teachers don't have the rights to discipline children and to keep them in line. What will you give to the teachers to be able to teach the children and have some form of discipline.

MARK LATHAM: Well, we want out-of-school programs for the kids that have got right out of control. Often they need sorting out away from the schools so the good kids can get on with their study.

MAN: That'll make them rebel even more if you take them away and put them in isolation. They're just going to rebel even more, aren't they?

MARK LATHAM: The counselling and the assistance they need to settle themselves down. A lot of the kids –

MAN: They're going to say, "They have classed me as a troublemaker and they've put me in isolation. Therefore I must live up to what they say."

MARK LATHAM: Well, no, it's in another learning environment, one suited to the behavioural problems that they're going through. Because I think the kids that are studying hard deserve a fair go.

JENNY BROCKIE: We have a lot of people who want to ask questions. The lady there, yes.

WOMAN 2: I've got a teaching question. With Howard, he's come over and said that he's going to offer males a scholarship to get more men into teaching. Would you agree or disagree with that? If you disagree with that, how you try to entice them.

MARK LATHAM: Actually what happened was that the Catholic system said they wanted to bring 12 scholarships in - just 12 - and the Prime Minister said he was going to alter and weaken the Sex Discrimination Act to do that. In the end the Catholic system said, "Well, we don't need the act changed. We can do this another way." So they're getting on with the job without the legislation being altered. So the Government in fact is not doing anything. My point would be we need more than 12 men in our teaching system. We need thousands around Australia. We've got to ensure that the campaigns and promotion for a year 11 boy to think that teaching is an honoured profession, a good thing to aspire to, and help them on their way through to take up the teaching positions that we've got in our higher education package.

JENNY BROCKIE: The gentleman here.

MAN 2: National security I think is a very important issue for any prime minister. It's one of the key roles - one of your key roles if you get elected. How do you see the relationship between Australia and America changing and if it is a changing relationship, how are you going to maintain and foster that relationship in Australia's best interests?

MARK LATHAM: Well, we have a very important alliance with the United States that was established by a Labor government in WWII, and Labor's proud of that. And for 60 years or more we've been supporters of the American alliance. But we've never seen it as a rubber-stamp, from time to time there have been disagreements - there was the Whitlam Labor government, the Hawke Labor government. But the main thing is to keep the fundamentals of the relationship strong. At the moment that means intelligence sharing. I'm a strong supporter of the "joint facilities", the intelligence bases the United States has in Australia, that's absolutely crucial in the war against terror. Anti-terrorism is important and I suppose a recent disagreement we've had is that we didn't see the war in Iraq as the front line in the war in terror. We would have seen the resources go into catching bin Laden or breaking up al-Qa'ida and JI. So we didn't support that engagement. But in terms of defending each other's interests, joint defence exercises, being a good alliance partner, an equal alliance partner with the United States, that's always been the Labor way.

JENNY BROCKIE: Are people here worried about this issue, about what sort of relationship Labor would have with the United States? Yes, the gentleman up the back?

MAN 3: I believe you're going to the United States in June. Will you be meeting President Bush?

MARK LATHAM: No, I don't think President Bush meets opposition leaders. I think you've got to go back many decades to find an Australian opposition leader - Labor or Liberal - who ever met an American president.

MAN 3: And before the election will you go to Europe?

MARK LATHAM: No, well, the election is a busy time and this is a big country to get around and talk to everyone, so I've got to spend time here more than overseas. I've done two overseas trips to New Guinea and also to New Zealand. Got this one scheduled to the United States, but that should pretty well be it.

JENNY BROCKIE: If, say, you and George Bush win the elections, what's it going to be like having that first conversation with a man you've described as "the most incompetent and dangerous President in living memory"?

MARK LATHAM: Well, one thing about our great democracies is a lot worse things are said about me in this country, and so too about President Bush in his own election contest. And just have a look at the speech that Senator Teddy Kennedy made about President Bush in recent times. Elections are hotly contest in both countries and that's part of our democratic tradition. Whether or not I win or whether or not President Bush wins will be determined by the Australian people and the American people and my perspective has always been to support the American alliance, ensure it's a good, strong partnership, and to stand up for Australia's interests within that alliance. So that will be what I'm planning to do in the future. And whether or not President Bush wins, that's up to his own system and his own democracy.

JENNY BROCKIE: Lady in the back row.

WOMAN 3: How is the Labor Government going to bring back terrorism into perspective, because at the moment terrorism is on the news constantly and we hear about it day in and day out. I'm just wondering how's the Labor Party going to change this if they get into government?

MARK LATHAM: Well, we don't control the news bulletins, but, I mean, it's a changed world. It's a very uncertain and dangerous world and there's a lot of terrible things happening within it. And the way of the media, that ends up in our living rooms through TV. Our approach on terrorism, as I what I was saying earlier on, is to target the terrorists, not to divert resource into areas that don't get the result, but actually target the terrorists, work with our allies, especially through the intelligence facilities, to target these evil people and eliminate them as much as that's possible.

WOMAN 3: And stop them from coming into the country?

MARK LATHAM: And also put a premium on the home front. I've been to regional airports in Australia where they've got no screening facilities - 80,000 passengers - no screening facilities for passengers or luggage. We also need a department of homeland security, one federal agency to work with the states to get it right, particularly for the safety of transport systems and the like. These are important changes that we could be making here in Australia. We also support the idea of an Australian coastguard. You talk about border protection. We're the world's largest island, we've got 37,000km of coastline, we need a coastguard to keep our country secure against a whole range of threats.

JENNY BROCKIE: Gentleman up the back, yes - you put your hand up?

MAN 3: You mentioned - just talking on that subject with border patrols. What would you do with the detainees who are here now in detention centres and any newcomers?

MARK LATHAM: On the newcomers our coastguard strategy is important. We also believe in targeting the people smugglers. The worst of them will receive life in jail under a Labor Government. I want people setting off on their people smuggling trade to have in the back of their mind their journey could end with life imprisonment in an Australian jail. That to me is a pretty good deterrent. As for the ones in detention, we support the mandatory detention system. It was established under the last Labor Government. But we also want to ensure that it's not a system of long-term punishment, people there four or five years. Let's get them sorted out quickly. Let's actually process their credentials quickly. The genuine refugees are obviously welcomed into the Australian community. That's always been the way. If they're not genuine, well, they're going to have to go home. They're going to have to make other arrangements. So we've got a target of processing 90% of the asylum seekers within 90 days. Let's sort out their credentials and get on with the job.

JENNY BROCKIE: Gentleman here, yes.

MAN 4: On that subject of immigration, how would you see the quota for immigration - would it rise or decrease the quota for legal immigration...

MARK LATHAM: The overall national program?

MAN 4: ..and especially for skilled migrants?

MARK LATHAM: I think the important thing for Australia, particularly for us here in south-west Sydney is more the pattern of migration settlement, that some parts of Australia want bigger population, whereas here in Sydney it's about 'house full' sign has gone up and we don't want this city to sprawl down to Goulburn and create too much congestion and pollution. So I think we need to think about ways in which we can redirect the pattern of migration settlement.

JENNY BROCKIE: But how do you do that?

MARK LATHAM: Well, we've produced a research report that would put a binding target on the Immigration Department, get 45% of the new arrivals out into the regional areas. Their main recommendation is a two-stage visa, a temporary visa for going to a regional area and only after you've proved your residential qualifications in the medium term do you get the permanent visa.

JENNY BROCKIE: But you can't keep them there forever, can you?

MARK LATHAM: Oh, no, you can't, but you can certainly do more than is being done at the moment.

JENNY BROCKIE: More questions. Yes?

MAN 5: One question, I wanted to bring it back to Macarthur a lot more. I wanted to ask about child care. A lot of the people you saw in the houses and all that sort of thing pay astronomical fees for child care and they're sort of penalised, if you like, to go out - because they go out and work. And I want to see - I want to know what your government is going to do to perhaps reduce the cost of child care. And secondly, one of the issues with child care is that with a child care centre they have to have an early childhood teacher. I don't know if you know that there's a real shortage of early childhood teachers, and the CCC or diploma cannot run a child care centre with over 50 students - children. I just wonder what your government is going to do about that, because that is a really big issue in this area to do with child care?

MARK LATHAM: Yeah, sure. We certainly want to get qualified teachers and the best skilled people into the child care system. A lot of them are there at the moment, but, as you point out, a lot of the centres don't have the teacher-qualified person. So we've got to make it more than child minding - it's got to be child development, and early childhood development ensuring that our infant children are having books read at night and get the best programs through preschool and child care, that's crucial.
We haven't announced our formal child-care policy yet, but we've announced an initiative to put some more resources into playgroups - this hall here doubles as a playgroup by day. And that's an important service for families. We've have some policies closer to the election that are about the affordability and accessibility of the child-care system, but also quality.

JENNY BROCKIE: But will child care cost less under Labor?

MARK LATHAM: Well, we haven't announced our policy yet.

JENNY BROCKIE: Here you go - do it now?

MARK LATHAM: Well, as much as I love Glen Alpine and Macarthur, I can't do it tonight.

JENNY BROCKIE: It's a simple question, Mark?

MARK LATHAM: Well, we're trying to get the balance right. There's the quality, the accessibility and the affordability. At the end of the day, there's no magic pudding. You need more government resources.

JENNY BROCKIE: Yes, here in the middle row.

MAN 6: What's your assessment of the State Government's handling of health and in particular public hospitals?

MARK LATHAM: Well, I've been worried like other residents about the controversy at Campbelltown and Camden Hospital. I'm assured that they're getting on with fixing it. I know there's some good things happening there. My second son was born there at Campbelltown Hospital and we got the very best treatment and finished up over at Camden Hospital in the new maternity section. So I know they have some good care, some wonderful care. But when you hear these examples of things that have gone wrong, it's scary.

JENNY BROCKIE: Has Bob Carr not shaped up on this, measured up?

MARK LATHAM: Well, he doesn't run the hospitals himself, but I believe he has stepped in and sorted out the problems as quickly as possible. I mean, we all want the best hospital care and in terms of what can be done, it's about resourcing, that matters. And at a federal level I've been arguing that if we keep bulk-billing rates strong, that takes the pressure off the emergency department at hospitals. The big thing is - I've gone around hospitals in different parts of the country - there are so many beds that are taken up by people who can't get a nursing home placement. So resolving the aged care crisis in this country would free up a lot of hospital beds that should be used for people who've got the emergency cases and the like.

JENNY BROCKIE: Anyone else concerned about health before we move on to something else.

MAN 7: My wife is a registered nurse and she's a midwife and an early child care nurse, something like that. And she did all of her training in the days where you worked in the hospital from the beginning, so she had the income. She comes from a medical family. Dad's a gynaecologist. They often talk about the whole issue of training nurses and getting more nurses. That perhaps the problem could be addressed if we were to put the training of them back into the hospitals so the young people were able to get a wage from the beginning, but also so that there's a higher level of competency with the hands-on reality of actually nursing rather than just getting an academic qualification. I'm not sure of the actual figures, but my nurse - my nurse, my wife! - she is my nurse... when I need it - she's also like a midwife who because she hasn't operated in that field for a number of years, she has to pay some exorbitant amount of money and do some uni training to learn what she already knows. Do you think, specifically, the issue of the shortage of nurses could be reversed and we could put it back to how it used to be? Would that fix it?

MARK LATHAM: I think one of the smart things the Government could do is help people who've been nurses, moved out of the profession for family reasons, to help them back in with support for training and medical technology does change quickly.

MAN 7: What I'm asking is can - could a nurse - of course you've got to do the practical and the academic - but the old way of training used to be that you started doing both straight up and you got paid at the beginning. Now you have to get a degree before you go in and then you learn more of your practical hands-on after you get your degree. The question specifically is: Is the old system better? Could we reintroduce it? I think it's better.

MARK LATHAM: I've got to say I see no problem with people doing both simultaneously - doing the formal qualifications and working in a hospital.

JENNY BROCKIE: And being paid?

MARK LATHAM: Well, of course, if they're working people deserve to be paid. If that's worked in the past and it's a way of overcoming the shortage of nurses now, why wouldn't you try it again.

JENNY BROCKIE: Some more questions. I wonder if anyone is interested in tax, which hasn't come up yet? Lady up the back.

WOMAN 4: You were talking about tax incentives for people to work more. I'm looking for tax incentives for people who are looking forward to being self-funded retirees. Our superannuation company was set up by ourselves in the '70s and every dollar in there is ours. I want to know Labor's stand on whether or not you'll be able to access on retirement the complete amount, or whether you're thinking about putting it out as a pension.

MARK LATHAM: Well, our stance on superannuation is to help people build the money up. That's why we've announced a cut to the superannuation contributions tax.

WOMAN 4: Yeah, but can we access it all at once?

MARK LATHAM: Well, the current Government is bringing some legislation through to make it more in the pension approach than the lump sum.

JENNY BROCKIE: But this lady is asking about Labor's stand?

WOMAN 4: What is Labor's stand?

MARK LATHAM: Right. Well, we believe in people having choice. We believe in choice and we certainly don't support Mr Costello's rhetoric about work till you drop. He's bringing these changes in to try to force people to work longer.

WOMAN: All I'm asking is can I access my own money all at once and not have it handed out as a pension? If it's your fund that you established I would have thought you could access it now. So what's the restriction?

JENNY BROCKIE: This lady is asking under you as a prime minister and under a future Labor Government would she still be able to access a lump sum - her whole lump sum of super?

MARK LATHAM: Yeah, we've got no problem with that, because this is a fund you've established as a business person?

WOMAN 4: Yes, yes.

MARK LATHAM: So I think if you've established your own fund and you've been managing it all these years and access to it...

WOMAN 4: So that's a quote?

MARK LATHAM: I would have thought you've got that right now. There's a big fear...

JENNY BROCKIE: Yes, but it's more about the future.

MARK LATHAM: We're not planning to take that right away. If that's the question, then there's my answer.

WOMAN 4: That's a different quote,

JENNY BROCKIE: OK. Lady up the back, yes?

WOMAN 5: You're talking about this lady with her self-funded tax, but what about a low-income earner? What are you going to do for low-income earners for their super tax?

MARK LATHAM: Well, we want to reduce the tax. We've announced a tax cut from 15% to 13% on the contributions tax and we want to ensure that as people put their money in the super fund it's working for them instead of going into the tax man's pocket. The other thing we want to do is if we can hold down fees and charges, then obviously people are going to have a bigger amount of super at their retirement. So we think that's the best way. We don't want to put a new cost on workers or businesses. We'd rather lower the costs of tax in the system and ultimately we'd like the Government to join with us to phase out the contributions tax, to get rid of it altogether, because it's one of the worst taxes in the system.

JENNY BROCKIE: But you're talking about low income people, aren't you, not about higher income?

WOMAN 5: Yes, yes.

MARK LATHAM: That helps everyone. If you lower the tax on the contribution, whether you're low or medium income or high, obviously you're going to be better off because the super money is working for you, it's multiplying with compound interest and investment strategies and that's very important.

WOMAN 5: The current Government is talking about a matching dollar for dollar under $40,000 income. Will you continue that?

MARK LATHAM: Yeah, we've got no problem with that scheme. But our broader approach is to lower taxes, fees and charges, so the money is actually working for you. Because, quite frankly, in terms of adequacy, it's the low-income people who get knocked around by the fees and charges, in particular.

WOMAN 5: And what about on exit?

MARK LATHAM: Sorry?

WOMAN 5: What about when you access that super?

MARK LATHAM: We're not changing that. We want to lower the tax as you put it in, which is the really damaging tax, because that limits the amount of money that's going to come out at the other end on retirement.

JENNY BROCKIE: Is anyone concerned about an increase in tax under Labor? Is that a concern here amongst the group? Yes?

WOMAN 6: Yes, if you're elected prime minister, will you be increasing the GST rate?

MARK LATHAM: No, absolutely not.

JENNY BROCKIE: You've said you won't increase the overall tax burden, but I wonder whether you'll shift the burden of who pays tax, whether you're going to shuffle it around so some people will pay more or companies will pay more and others will pay less?

MARK LATHAM: No, we've said no increase in the company tax rate and no increase in capital gains tax. Our approach is to recognise that the PAYE taxpayer has been the workhorse of the modern Australian tax system and they deserve a bit of relief, because through the bracket creep they're always going into a higher bracket and paying more tax. The Government last time gave back a sandwich and a milkshake and even that was pretty rare. So the PAYE taxpayer deserved some relief. The most important thing we can do is recognise it's not just the tax system, it's the interaction with the social security system. That point I made earlier about the effective marginal tax rates, bringing them down to give people some real incentive to work hard.

JENNY BROCKIE: So you guarantee a cut in PAYE tax under Labor?

MARK LATHAM: We believe in PAYE tax relief and we believe in bringing down those effective marginal tax rates and we're going to see what's in the Budget.

JENNY BROCKIE: Is that a guarantee?

MARK LATHAM: Well, the first step is to see what's in the Budget in a couple of weeks time, but you're certainly going to have a guarantee under Labor that we're bringing down the effective marginal tax rates so people have got some decent incentive to work hard.

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, let's say the Government delivers big tax cuts in May. Can you promise that you won't undo them in order to provide increased services, for example?

MARK LATHAM: Well, we can't run things in a hypothetical way. We're going to have to have a look at the detail of what they bring down in the Budget. That's the way the system works. The Government brings down the Budget in its tax plan and we'll look at it as an Opposition according to our priorities and then the Australian people have a choice. There will be the Government's tax plan and there will be ours, just as there will be the Government's limited initiatives in social investment and the things we want to do, particularly in health and education. So there will be choices after the Budget. As Opposition Leader I believe very much in giving people a choice. Labor principles are different to Liberal principles and that's reflected in our policies.

JENNY BROCKIE: Yes, over here, gentleman here.

MAN 4: Here's one hypothetical question. If you could choose, who would you rather front in the next election - Peter Costello or John Howard?

MARK LATHAM: Well, I think it's likely to be Mr Howard, somehow, because Mr Costello was sort of making a bit of a jostle there. But one of the risks is that people might vote for Mr Howard and you end up with Mr Costello, because I don't think anyone really thinks Mr Howard is going to be there right through the next term of parliament. He hasn't given that commitment. So I'm I suppose ready to face Mr Howard, but worried that they've got a plan to hand over to Mr Costello later on.

JENNY BROCKIE: Gentleman here, yes?

MAN 8: You were talking before about making some change in the tax system. When the GST came in, companies no longer had to pay wholesale sales tax, OK, so they were actually paying tax. Under the GST they pay no tax at all, because what they pay in tax they claim back at the end of the month. Does your changes actually do anything to like the companies, because basically if companies make a lot of money, it lines the pockets of the rich and - because they're the ones who are investing in companies. Whereas if the money that was lost in wholesale sales tax could be used to fund other things that you're talking about here and now, that money is effectively gone. It's out of the tax system. Companies aren't paying any GST, because anything they pay for they claim back at the end of the month.

MARK LATHAM: Well, they make GST remittances. The complaint I get from a lot of businesses is that the Business Activity Statement is a nightmare in terms of compliance costs and different problems.

MAN 8: It's a piece of cake. I do it myself.

MARK LATHAM: I've spoken to a lot of business people who object to it. It might be the nature of their business. The video shop owner - family video shop at Ingleburn around from my office showed me what he had to do and I was horrified by what he had to go through.

JENNY BROCKIE: And you're disputing this? Are you video shop owners?

TRACEY RIXON: No, we were talking about the video, that was us on the video...

MARK LATHAM: OK, that was you on the video. You don't run a video shop. You were on there, on the video. No, I'm just saying that the fellow around from my electorate office who runs a video shop...

TRACEY RIXON: People who talk about the GST go back to what a nightmare the BAS statement is. I haven't found it a nightmare. What I wanted to ask you is with your aspirational voters, the two cars, big house, big mortgage, that type of thing. We have a small business and so many people we associate with have small businesses and everyone makes this reference, you have a business, you're rich. But everyone is also worried about Mark Latham getting in. Like people in business that we've spoken to that are friends of ours, we're all worried about Labor getting in because of the impact on us and that follows down the line - the impact on the employees. What can you do to instil confidence in small business that you're not going to hit us in the hip-pocket?

MARK LATHAM: Well, we're not hitting small business. We're trying to help. What we're actually trying to do is ensure through BAS simplification and also what I mentioned at the beginning - trade practices reform - that you've actually got some effective protection for small business against the power of big business, because again, a lot of businesses get run out through predatory pricing or abuse of market power. They get squashed by the big businesses and just last week I announced our package to ensure the Trade Practices Act provides a level playing field, where if you're a small business, you're working hard, you're having a go, you're not going to be squashed by the power of big business.

TRACEY RIXON: What about your industrial relations plans because a lot of your things that we hear in the media that you're planning to do for things like casual employees or unfair dismissals impact on us as being a small business.

MARK LATHAM: Well, we believe in workplace flexibility - enterprise bargaining and flexibility within the workplace is very important. Labor started that when we were last in government. So we don't want to go back to some big centralised system.

JENNY BROCKIE: But you do want to reregulate, don't you, in some areas? You are looking to reregulate?

MARK LATHAM: We just want to make sure there are some basic standards that the system has. We don't support the individual contracts, the AWAs, because they're mostly used to get under the award system and also have fewer family-friendly provisions. But we certainly want flexibility and the capacity for businesses to grow according to their own priorities as long as we've got some integrity and some decent standards for workers. I don't think you can sort of have a dog-eat-dog industrial relations environment. You've got to have some standards. But on top of that, you need to have maximum flexibility.

JENNY BROCKIE: There's one other area that a few people raised before tonight which is welfare and this whole issue of welfare in this area. Does anyone want to ask a question about that? Yes?

SUZAN MAXWELL: I just want to know, the Government's been giving out $800 for these people to have after they have their children. I just want to know why these - all these young kids from 13 up, they're having babies, because they don't want to get out and work and they don't want to go to school. Do you think you'll be able to stop that money to stop these kids from having babies? Do you think you'll be able to get the parents to be supportive? You know, instead of paying them a pension because they've got a baby, don't you think it would be wise for the parents to be responsible, get them to look after the kid and the kid?

MARK LATHAM: Well, I believe in responsibility and parental responsibility is very important. Parents should know where their kids are at night and get them to school by day. I think parenting responsibility is vital. And 98% of parents do that. The other 2% that don't, they need a bit of help or pressure to meet their responsibilities. But I think this issue of teenage pregnancies, which is an issue in our community here, is more complex...

SUZAN MAXWELL: They hear $800, they think, "Oh, get pregnant, get the money."

MARK LATHAM: Anyone who's got children knows $800 is not going to make you a profit. It's just not going to make you a profit. My experience in talking to the girls and their teachers...

SUZAN MAXWELL: I've talked to a lot of them and they say it's just like getting money from a baby, you know, because the Government...

MARK LATHAM: You can't make a profit from having kids when $800... I think it's a social problem where the girls feel lonely and left out and having a baby is a way of being special.

JENNY BROCKIE: Could I pick up on a more general point that arises out of that. I wonder if you think there are too many people on welfare who shouldn't be?

MARK LATHAM: Well, there's always people who are trying to have a lend of the system. That's an inevitable part of any welfare system. So the role of government is to try to identify them and ensure...

JENNY BROCKIE: But you've emphasised this idea ...

MARK LATHAM: I know through people through my electorate office I'd have to say, "Look, you're not genuine. You're spinning me a yarn here. Your case is not supported by the facts". There are people like that. But I also think the majority of people are genuine and they're in need of training and support and encouragement to go out and get a job.

JENNY BROCKIE: You also seem to see your role as - or possibly see government's role - as making people more personally responsible. Is that a fair description of your philosophy? You've mentioned things like cutting benefits to unemployed parents who don't supervise their children's home work or don't attend adult education classes, fining parents who can't control their children, that kind of thing. Is that the kind of thing you'd want to do as Prime Minister?

MARK LATHAM: Not in the specifics you've mentioned, but...

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, they're things you've mentioned.

MARK LATHAM: Well, a bit more complicated than that, but I certainly believe in the combination of opportunity plus responsibility. You know, if people want to get ahead, a government providing opportunities is important, but there's no substitute for hard work. If you want to get out of poverty and disadvantage, you've got to make some personal effort yourself. So government demanding and requiring people to exercise that personal responsibility, combined with government's own responsibility to get the services and opportunities right, it's that combination that gets the best result. I've believed in that all my life.

JENNY BROCKIE: Lady in the middle row, yes.

WOMAN 7: Campbelltown is a high-need area in terms of welfare and particularly children and families - there is a lack of services to support those families. And are you - do you have any policies or any ideas about how to target high-need areas like Campbelltown so we can have more support which might be able to help these people that are disadvantaged integrate into work and into the community?

MARK LATHAM: It's a big issue. We've got families in our community of two, three, even four generations unemployed. You wonder how the young ones growing up without the role model of a working parent how they're going to get equal opportunities in life. I think the answer is obviously in the education system but also early intervention. I think you need to invest early. The sort of nursing and reading programs I mentioned earlier on. A lot of these problems are opening up 0-5. The 5-year-old child who is reading at home and has learning materials in the home are on the pathway to advantage. The 5-year-old without those things is on a pathway to lifetime disadvantage. So you've got to have early intervention, early investment and importantly, break the cycle by helping people get a job. Long-term unemployment hasn't come down under the current Government. We need the labour market and training programs to help those people and break the vicious cycle.

JENNY BROCKIE: Lady in the front row, yes?

WOMAN 8: Mark, there was mention earlier about the baby bonus that women are getting after they have a baby. There are many women in Australia who are going through IVF and have very high costs associated with IVF. Does Labor have any plans to help reduce these costs for these women?

MARK LATHAM: Well, not specifically, but, you know, the State hospital system would be charging those costs. One thing we have got, that we announced a few weeks ago, is our baby care payment, which is $3,000 for working plus non-working mums and 90% of the mums will receive it. That fulfils our commitment on maternity leave, but it also recognises that when a child is born there are lots of costs. You mentioned one of them, in conceiving the child, but there are costs. We want to help families meet the costs so they can concentrate on nurturing and loving the children, so it's a wonderful experience, rather than all the financial problems that you come under.

MAN 9: Why is it then that Medicare fully funds abortion but it won't fully fund IVF?

MARK LATHAM: Well that's not something that I'm expert on and I'm not too sure it's exactly right. I'd have to look into the details of that. Tony Abbott the Health Minister has raised the question of abortion in recent times. I support the choice of women in their circumstances. Not all - as I understand it, not all of the abortion cases are refunded under Medicare. It varies.

MAN 9: As a couple going through IVF it's just we go through extraordinary costs, tens and tens of thousands of dollars. Where's - you know, there's no support for us. What do you plan to do for supporting?

MARK LATHAM: Well, I can't say that I've got a plan here that I can give you, but if we can work with the States to bring down those costs and make the program more accessible, that's obviously very important.

JENNY BROCKIE: We are going to have to wrap up in a moment. Just a couple of quick questions, yes?

MAN 7: Mark, just a personal question I'd like to ask you. I'm a pastor of a new church in Campbelltown and I firmly believe that what people believe in influences and impacts what they do, politicians and policies. I'm just interested to know do you yourself believe that there is a personal God.

MARK LATHAM: A personal God?

MAN 7: Yes, a God who we can know?

MARK LATHAM: Well, in my own personal experience I'm best described as agnostic. I think there is a world beyond this, a spiritual world and set of influences, but it hasn't presented itself or my experiences tell me I couldn't say it's this religion or that religion. I just haven't had that sort of personal connection. I believe there is something else - obviously a lot of people believe that - but I haven't been able to define it in terms of a religious faith. So I'm agnostic in that regard and curious to find out what happens, you know. And if that sort of more definitive experience ever presents itself to me, which it does to some people.

JENNY BROCKIE: Lady up the back, yes.

WOMAN 9: Mark, if you get elected, are you planning to make Australia a republic, or are we going to still remain under a Commonwealth nation?

MARK LATHAM: Well I'd like to hand that over to the people. We had a referendum in 1999 that out here people voted no. Why? Because I think people thought they were left out of the process. A bunch of powerful people sat down in the Old Parliament House and worked out a model without asking us here in the outer suburbs or the regions of the nation. So my approach will be to have a plebiscite - "Do people want to become a republic? Yes or no?" If they say 'yes', then what sort of model do the people want when there's a range of models that are offered. Then once the people have chosen the model we can go forward to a formal referendum. So I want to involve the public. I don't want a constitutional convention or Malcolm Turnbull telling us what to do. I want the people to decide what sort of republic they want and give them the confidence to think that they can vote for it knowing that they've been part of the process.

JENNY BROCKIE: What sort of republic do you want?

MARK LATHAM: Well, as a voter I'll be voting for a direct election model. I think if we're going to have an Australian president, personally I think we should be directly electing that person. The President would belong to us and the people should have a say about that. But there's also the model we had last time - the minimalist or McGarvie model. There might be others that come up in the interim. So it will be up to the people to decide which model they want. But my own personal view and vote would be for direct election of an Australian president.

JENNY BROCKIE: How quickly would you put that on the agenda if you were to win government?

MARK LATHAM: We'd want to get that done in our first term. So have the first plebiscite then the second and then by the time of the following election would be good timing for a constitutional referendum and it obviously saves money to do it that way as well. Have an election day, it's all set up. You can have a referendum on the republic at the same time.

JENNY BROCKIE: A couple of quick last questions. Yes, lady up there?

WOMAN 10: Mark, it's actually been suggested that you are a larrikin and that your language is colourful. But I think there's a percentage of Australians that actually appreciate the straightforwardness of your language and your approach. How will you actually maintain that in the wake of the media sort of game up to the election. So what's your game plan, so to speak?

JENNY BROCKIE: It's softened up a bit already, hasn't it?

MARK LATHAM: Well, I'm not allowed to swear anymore, you know. If I kick my foot out on a walk or something, I might have a quiet swear word to myself, but nothing in public. I said on day one "no more crudity". I do like to talk straight and I hope I can give straight answers to people.

WOMAN 10: I think there are people who would appreciate that and value that in a prime minister.

MARK LATHAM: I'll keep that straight-talking and straight-shooting approach going, but no crudity. That's what I've said and I've sort of stuck to it so far. I have stuck to it so far and I want to keep that up.

JENNY BROCKIE: A lot of people are wondering about this, because you seemed to be much bolder before you became Opposition Leader.

MARK LATHAM: Well I dropped the odd clanger, you see.

JENNY BROCKIE: You were throwing ideas out everywhere and you seem to be retreating quite a bit on things since you've become Opposition Leader.

MARK LATHAM: Well, it's a different role. You speak for the entire party, so you've got to do it through a different process. But I do like to express myself directly and hope people know where I stand on the issues. That's not going to change. Obviously when you go into a different role, it's like any part of our work, you've got different responsibilities and sometimes you've just got to modify a few things that you've done in the past.

JENNY BROCKIE: Can I just ask you one last question, sort of related to that, because you talk a lot about trust, you talk a lot about building communities together, yet you've also described yourself as a hater. In fact, you've spoken very well of hating. You've said that you hope your little boy hates a liberal prime minister who sells out our national interest. How do you build cooperative communities with attitudes like that?

MARK LATHAM: Well, that was a debate about the free trade and agricultural access in the US. But it actually came out of a discussion with a journalist about the Federal Government's decision here to abolish the better cities program, right here in Campbelltown, that would have helped in our public housing estates. I've got to say that when governments are hurting disadvantaged people in this community, I get pretty worked up about it, so that probably wasn't the best way to express myself, but it was more an expression of anger at a government policy decision that hurt the community, the community where I've always lived. I can be passionate.

JENNY BROCKIE: Are you a hater? Are you a good hater?

MARK LATHAM: Well, I'm a passionate person. I've probably got over that particular issue, but I'm passionate about things that hurt people and that's one of the reasons I got into politics, to try to make a fairer society where people don't get hurt as much. So where there's a bad government decision I'm afraid I do get worked up about it and feel for the people who are copping it.

JENNY BROCKIE: I'm afraid we are going to have to leave it there. I'd to thank everyone here very much for coming in tonight and asking your questions. We covered an awful lot of ground. Thank you very much. Special thanks to you, Mark Latham, for coming on Insight and taking our questions. Much appreciated. I should mention that we have issued an identical invitation to PM John Howard to talk to voters in a marginal electorate and we're told that invitation is still being considered.

Ends. E & OE