Pauline Hanson, Interest rates, national security, economy Craig Emerson - Shadow Minister for Workplace Relations

TV Interview with Maxine McKew

Transcript - Lateline, ABC TV - 7 November 2003

MAXINE McKEW: Well, now to our Friday Forum in a week where the tempo was tapped out in a series of increasingly arresting headlines. Interest rates went up, unemployment went down, questions surrounding Frenchman Willie Brigitte remained unanswered, a boatload of Kurds found themselves at the centre of the national security debate and, of course, the finale: Pauline Hanson and David Ettridge were freed.

Well, to discuss the issues tonight we're joined by the Liberals' Bronwyn Bishop and, in Canberra, Labor frontbencher Craig Emerson.

First to, as I said, the finale of the week.

Bronwyn Bishop, among other things, Ms Hanson on her release said she was grateful to both you and Alan Jones for your continued support.

Was that because you maintained contact with her while she was in prison?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: I think it was because I spoke out well and truly at the beginning, when she was first sentenced, and I said that she was a political prisoner and I said that because there was no criminality.

Indeed, I said she should neither have been prosecuted nor convicted nor set into a maximum security jail, subject to strip searching.

And I'm so pleased to see her released today and so see that the judgment of the appellate court really is highly critical of the DPP, of their failure to prove their case, the Crown to prove its case, and really it just highlights the problems that Peter Beattie, as the Premier, has to take responsibility for.

MAXINE MCKEW: You've said she should be compensated.

What would be appropriate for, what was it, 11 weeks imprisonment?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Yes, well I said first of all that Premier Beattie should apologise to them and, secondly, make an ex gratia payment.

Now, I don't know what the sum should be, but I notice that Premier Beattie has gone from being gleeful at their imprisonment to, well, "it's just the law doing its job", to "it's the jury's fault", to "no way will they get a payment", to "I'll look at it" to, "yes, I'll apologise".

So it's been quite a movement, I think.

MAXINE MCKEW: Craig Emerson, Premier Beattie has also flagged a review of the Justice Department and the role of the DPP in relation to this.

So what do you think?

Is compensation also in order?

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: I think that the separation of powers is a very important principle ... and that's the separation of powers between the judiciary and the government of the day.

Mrs Bishop's statements are totally at odds with those of the PM today, who said that this showed that the judicial system had worked.

And, if I could just quote him, he said, "Any suggestion that this prosecution was carried out otherwise than in a completely independent fashion by the Queensland DPP is wrong.

"I do not believe for a moment that there was any political involvement by the Queensland Government."

So which Liberal is right ... Mrs Bishop or Mr Howard?

MAXINE MCKEW: Bronwyn Bishop?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: I don't really see there's any conflict in the statement that John Howard was making about the case.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: It was a total conflict.

It was a total contradiction and repudiation of view.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Let me finish.

I said that Mr Beattie ought to apologise, and I'm very pleased to see he has done so today.

Now, if I can go to the question of the separation of powers it works very well, that means that the judiciary is separate from the legislature and from the executive.

But, if you have a look at the speech that the Chief Justice of the High Court made at the occasion of the centenary of the High Court, he observed that criticism in a robust democracy of courts is alive and well and should be.

MAXINE MCKEW: It's not what Margaret McMurdo said.

She had you in your sights along with the PM and along with Bob Carr when she was talking about your comments about the initial sentencing.

Do you wish you had been less forthcoming with your comments?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: No, I don't.

And indeed you can't really have it both ways.

If you read the sentencing judgment, which is a pretty poor document, but you will see in there that Justice Patsy Wolf actually bemuses herself by saying that what would have happened if One Nation had not been registered and therefore the name of the party had gone on the ballot paper next to the candidate's name, she observes that Premier Beattie only won with the support of an Independent and, if the name of the party "One Nation" had not been on the ballot paper infers that Mr Beattie might have won in his own right.

So there's quite a political tinge in that.

MAXINE MCKEW: Craig Emerson, there's this question of commenting.

Bob Carr has got into the act.

Doesn't it highlight the fact that ... as far as I know, Steve Bracks is someone who maintains the golden rule ... and that is that he never comments about sentencing.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: Simon Crean didn't comment about sentencing either, and neither did I.

That's the position that we support.

We support and respect the judicial processes in this country.

The PM said it has worked.

The course of justice has been followed and now Mrs Hanson is free.

But one politician that Mrs Hanson won't be thanking today is Tony Abbott, who, of course we know, set up a trust fund called Australians for Honest Politics, and quite separately bankrolled the case ... that is, the case that gathered evidence, this was a civil case that gathered evidence that was actually used in the prosecution.

So Tony Abbott was one politician who was involved.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: I think, of course, you make the distinction between a civil case, when you don't go to jail, and a criminal case, where you do go to jail.

And as hard as Mr Beattie is trying to make Mr Abbott wear his pain, I'm afraid Mr Beattie's going to have to wear it.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: The evidence in the civil case was used in the criminal case.

So, if Mr Abbott hadn't been involved in the bankrolling of Terry Sharples's case, this would not have happened of course.

That is something that Mr Abbott knows and has to confront --

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Oh, Craig, for heaven's sake!

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: ...and Mr Howard has to confront.

The Liberals are all over the shop on this.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: No way in the world.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: And you know ... you have been repudiated by the PM --

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Very simply --

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: ...and Tony Abbott has ducked for cover.

He's got an opinion on everything, this guy, but not today, he's gone to ground.

MAXINE MCKEW: Bronwyn Bishop, your turn.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: The Beattie Government made the decision to bring that criminal prosecution which resulted in Pauline Hanson and David Ettridge going to jail --

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: Completely wrong, completely wrong.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: ...and they're going to have to wear it.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: The Director of Public Prosecutions made that decision, as confirmed by any sensible person in Australia.

People who know Mrs Bishop know she's off her rocker, but of course we have a situation where Mrs Bishop, on behalf of the Liberals, can get out into the public domain and say it's all Peter Beattie's fault, have John Howard --

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Correct.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: See, there you go again.

Have John Howard completely repudiate her but not pull her into line and say, "Right, get off the air, Mrs Bishop."

Get off the air, Mrs Bishop ... that's what I say.

MAXINE MCKEW: You've made the point a couple of times.

Bronwyn Bishop, just going to Tony Abbott's action, though, it's been a spectacular own-goal politically, surely.

He's single-handedly revived their fortunes.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Well --

MAXINE MCKEW: It was a party going nowhere until the publicity about his actions.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Well, not really.

When she went to jail, there was outrage, absolute outrage.

Um, when I called her a political prisoner, it resonated right across Australia, and I was doing an interview this morning where an overnight poll had been done where I was told the result was 83 per cent of people believed that description was apt.

MAXINE MCKEW: So what effect will that have on the Coalition?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: That's not a party rating question.

That's simply that people believe she should not have gone --

MAXINE MCKEW: It's an indication of support, so is there now a worry that the 1 million voters that came back ... the 1 million One Nation voters that came back to the Coalition are likely to swing again?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: No, I think the one man who's really worried at the moment is Mr Beattie, hence the swing around from glee at their imprisonment to an apology today.

That's quite a change.

MAXINE MCKEW: Do you think Pauline Hanson will perhaps run for the Senate, have a rethink over the weekend?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: You'll have to ask her that.

I'm not privy to what she might do.

All I said was it was an absolute outrage, and it was.

MAXINE MCKEW: Craig Emerson, just on this point with Tony Abbott and the coalition he set up, Labor can't be too pious on that.

In overt and covert ways, Labor was all for the demolition job that was being done on Pauline Hanson.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: Labor disagreed fundamentally with Pauline Hanson's policies particularly on Aborigines and on immigration, and we moved quickly to ensure that One Nation was put last on our how-to-vote cards.

We used the democratic processes.

We went through the ballot box, we went through the front door.

Tony Abbott went around the back door and whacked Pauline Hanson on the head and she fell to the ground and now Mrs Bishop and Tony Abbott ... certainly Mrs Bishop ... are saying Peter Beattie did that.

We know that Tony Abbott was involved up to his ears.

MAXINE MCKEW: Let's move on to some of the other domestic issues this week.

An interest rate rise with the promise of more to come ... Bronwyn Bishop, is it going to hurt, or have mortgagees been expecting it?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: I think there has been an expectation that it will rise slightly because we are at historically low rates ... about 30 years since we've had rates as low as this.

It will add about $8 a week for someone with a $100,000 mortgage, and that, I think, people will be able to manage.

MAXINE MCKEW: That's what it is at the moment, but it could be much more within the next six months and there's a whole group of home owners who have lived quite well on pretty cheap and easy credit, so a small rise will be keenly felt, certainly a lot of households in Sydney and Melbourne.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Yes, I think, though, with those historically low rates, we well and truly remember when under Paul Keating they were 17 per cent.

MAXINE MCKEW: Craig Emerson, how does Labor get that 17 per cent interest rate monkey off its back between now and the next election, because Bronwyn Bishop and the rest of the Coalition team are going to be be reminding you of it?

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: I'm reminding the Australian people, as is Mark Latham and Simon Crean, of the historically high levels of indebtedness.

The reason that a small increase in interest rates is so painful is that Australians are being lumbered with record debt.

They are struggling to make ends meet.

And there are sick records ... record household debt, record credit card debt, record low savings ratios, record trade deficit, record current account deficit and record foreign debt.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: And the strongest economy.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: Foreign debt has doubled under this Government.

The Government said it was going to fix it ... it's now $360 billion, which is around $20,000 for every man, woman and child in this country.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: And we've got the strongest economy that has been able to withstand, first, the Asian downturn, the slight recession of the US.

We have been a strong economy and able to withstand those things.

I think that's pretty good testament to Peter Costello.

MAXINE MCKEW: So what will the next election be about?

Will it be about economic security or our physical security?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: I think it will be about our physical security as well as our economic management.

Both those things will be important.

MAXINE MCKEW: If it's about our physical security as well, how is it that someone like Willie Brigitte is able to walk through the front door and we're still getting terribly anxious and excising 4,000 islands above the Tropic of Capricorn for about 14 Kurds?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: I think the statement that Philip Ruddock made today that we really can't be held responsible for a glitch in the French intelligence is a fair one to make.

MAXINE MCKEW: But, as you know, the war on terror is all about international cooperation.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Yes, it is.

MAXINE MCKEW: What's gone wrong with France, or what's gone wrong with our dialogue with France?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Well, I don't think it was the dialogue with France that was the problem.

The problem was --

MAXINE MCKEW: Mr Brigitte applied for a new passport in May in Sydney.

This is over the front page of the Telegraph today.

What happened?

Why didn't the French then pass on information about his background which they had?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: I can't answer you that, because I'm not privy to it.

MAXINE MCKEW: Craig Emerson?

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: The Government is always saying it wants new laws and more laws and more powers but it doesn't use the powers that it's got.

And the powers that it's got, generally, are very powerful, very strong.

MAXINE MCKEW: How could they have used them in this case, though?

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: They issued a tourist visa to the guy.

The French probably said that he was a terrorist and they understood it as a 'tourist' and said, "Good, we like tourists, we'll issue him a tourist visa."

MAXINE MCKEW: Now, come on, that's ludicrous.

How could the new ASIO powers of detention been used in this case where he was in Sydney --

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: This is the very point I'm making.

Whenever the Government is incompetent on national security, it says we need new laws ... instead of enforcing the laws, instead of being competent in the first place and using the laws it's got.

It then says, "We need new laws and Labor won't give 'em to us ... that's the problem."

The fundamental problem is the incompetence of this Government when it comes to national security.

To let this guy in and to have him here for four months, more than four months, not have a proper cooperative arrangement with the French authorities and then say we need new laws to deal with it, new laws aren't necessary to deal with it.

That's my very point.

They just need to apply the laws they've got and be a bit competent about this.

MAXINE MCKEW: Bronwyn Bishop?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: I think the case that was made out for new laws is a reasonable one.

Originally, when the ASIO bills were introduced, there was a slight watering down to get them through.

I think this case that we've got here shows that we do need the additional strength to those laws.

MAXINE MCKEW: Craig Emerson, in the case of, say, Mr Brigitte, he goes to the embassy in Paris to get his visa.

If they haven't got the information that's been passed on from the French authorities, what alternative do they have but to give him a visa?

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: They need to share intelligence.

It just goes to a fundamental failure of national security on the part of this Government.

Now, on another issue that you mentioned, and that is the 14 Kurds who have arrived on Melville Island, the Government then says, "We have to deal with this by removing 4,000 islands "from Australia's migration borders."

Again, this is completely unnecessary.

It's been tried before.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: And it works.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: And all it's designed to do is to try to get Labor to vote against it and say, "That's our problem."

It's completely ineffective.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: It's actually designed to apply the international laws to decide who is a refugee, without people having access to the very long and protracted court system which is otherwise in place.

We apply the international --

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: Of course, Mrs Bishop, what happens when they touch the mainland?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: That's precisely why the excise has taken place.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: Excising islands and not the mainland is just a joke.

MAXINE MCKEW: Finally, Bronwyn Bishop, the Australian editorialised on this issue today and said that old dog won't bark again.

Do you accept that -- that 'Tampa II' will not work.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: I think it is very clear that the Australian people want us to have the right to say who may come to this country and the manner in which they come, and they don't like people who jump the queue.

They like people to come in in an orderly way.

We are generous --

MAXINE McKEW: I'm sorry, one of the queue jumpers, and Mr Sammaki has just been released after three years in detention.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Maxine, I'm a mum, and I know there are a lot of other mums out there who know that these little children have lost their mum and their dad's all they've got.

This is a government that's got a heart as well.

Yes, we've got a strong policy that says we determine it and we do.

MAXINE McKEW: So how about some compensation for his three years?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: No --

MAXINE McKEW: Any ex gratia payment for Mr Sammaki?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: This is a different question.

MAXINE McKEW: So it's compassion, not compensation?

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Yes, it is, compassion for two little children who need their dad, but compensation for Pauline and for Mr Ettridge because they were prosecuted criminally by the Beattie Government which ended their being put into jail with no criminality.

MAXINE McKEW: Craig Emerson, did you have a quick final comment?

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: If the Government had a heart, it would release the 200 children who are caught behind razor wire in detention centres.

MAXINE McKEW: Alright, Craig Emerson, Bronwyn Bishop, thanks very much for joining us tonight.

BRONWYN BISHOP, LIBERAL BACKBENCHER: Thank you.

CRAIG EMERSON, LABOR FRONTBENCHER: Thank you.