Labor Leadership, Matched Savings Accounts, Family Payments System, Tax Credits, Labor National Presidency, Prostate Cancer Wayne Swan - Shadow Minister for Family and Community Services,

TV Interview with Paul Bongiorno, Karen Middleton & Peter Charlton

Transcript - Meet the Press, Channel Ten - 21 September 2003

PAUL BONGIORNO, MEET THE PRESS PRESENTER: Hello and welcome to Meet the Press. Just when Simon Crean thought he had buried the 'Carr for Canberra' story a Newspoll today in the Murdoch papers finds Labor would do much better with the NSW Premier at the helm. The leadership question keeps overshadowing Labor's policy message and blunts the Opposition's attack on issues where the Government is vulnerable. Like the Government's family tax benefit that catches thousands out every year with tax bills they are not ready for. Today Labor spokesman for Family and Community Services, Wayne Swan, meets the press. Welcome back to the program Mr Swan.

WAYNE SWAN, MINISTER FOR FAMILY AND COMMUNITY SERVICES: Good morning Paul.

PAUL BONGIORNO: That Newspoll finds 54% prefer Bob Carr to 20% opting for Simon Crean - what's the message there?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, Bob Carr is not coming to Canberra, Paul, so I think the message in this poll is that John Howard is beatable and that all of the meanness, all of the arrogance and all of the double standards that we have seen on display in the Parliament over the last month is really starting to hurt the Government. It shows that there is movement in the vote, that is very encouraging.

PAUL BONGIORNO: I notice that Newspoll, when it distributes the preferences, even with Carr at the helm, finds 50-50. In other words, even if Carr was coming to Canberra, it hardly seems worth the effort.

WAYNE SWAN: Well, I don't think the 2-party preferred poll in this Newspoll, or previous news polls, is worth a cracker. The thing you've really got to focus on is the primary vote. I think we are moving votes to Labor at the moment and moving votes to Labor in the longer term on the substantive policy issues. What it shows is that we can win and that is a good thing.

PAUL BONGIORNO: Is Bob Carr your sort of bloke?

WAYNE SWAN: I like Bob Carr. I don't think we share the same interests but I know one thing, he is a good politician. But Bob Carr is not coming to Canberra - that has been buried. So, in that sense, the poll is irrelevant. But what it does demonstrate is a tremendous movement, potentially, in the vote.

PAUL BONGIORNO: There is another poll in the 'Herald-Sun', the Taverner Poll, which seems to suggest that the clubs in New South Wales are winning the battle with the State Government over the poker machine tax. We know that New South Wales is a very vulnerable area for Labor, federally. Is there a chance that the row, the battle, the slug-out, if you like, with Singleton will hurt Labor as a brand-name and federally?

WAYNE SWAN: No, I don't believe so. The next federal election will be decided on the issues of access to affordable health, education and housing and which party is capable of delivering a fair go for people who work hard and make this economy strong. I don't believe those issues are going to crisscross into the federal election campaign at all.

PAUL BONGIORNO: On Friday there were reports of a brawl within the National Executive suggesting that an alliance between the centre-left and the left in Victoria, and elements of the right, were out to knock off Simon Crean in his own seat. What do you make of that?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, I don't believe that's an accurate recording of what occurred at the executive. the Executive was dealing with organisational matters of great sensitivity, both in New South Wales and in Victoria. And it is not surprising that someone would raise an issue of potential branch-stacking in Victoria and that would the equally contested in what was a highly-charged party environment.

PAUL BONGIORNO: The reading of it, and maybe the message that some people got out of the executive meeting, is that it shows just how vulnerable, how weak Simon Crean is in the leadership.

WAYNE SWAN: I don't believe so. There were very important issues on the table at the National Executive last Friday they were all resolved, both in terms of NSW and Victoria, in a suitable way. I don't believe it will have any enduring consequences at all. It is just what happens at National Executive meetings and has been going on for the whole time I've been in the party.

PAUL BONGIORNO: Just summing up on this - the Newspoll today, the stories that came out of the National Executive. Do these really suggest that the leadership issue has not been put to rest?

WAYNE SWAN: The leadership issue has been put to rest. The Parliamentary party took its decision on that some months ago. Howard is beatable. The task for all of us is to put together the combination of policies and the right campaign to win. What the polls are showing is that we can do that. The task for each and everyone one of us is to get out there and put the Labor case.

PAUL BONGIORNO: Well, Mark Latham last night, in his Chifley Lecture in Bathurst, put the Labor case. He also floated what he suggested would be a policy of the Labor Party, namely "nest-egg" accounts or "matched-savings" accounts. Nick Minchin, the Finance Minister, today suggested that in fact Shadow Cabinet hadn't approved that policy. Is Minchin right?

WAYNE SWAN: No, Minchin is not right. What Mark did was launch a discussion paper about matched-savings accounts. It is a very important part of an overall approach to stopping the growth of inequality in this society. We're going to get an American-style gap in our income distribution - the well-off are doing better all the time, the middle are being squeezed and the poor are falling further behind. Matched-savings accounts are part of a long-term solution to that problem - along with early assistance to families and along with affordable housing policies. They are all part of a long-term plan to protect the Australian way. If you like, to protect the ethos of a fair go in this society.

PAUL BONGIORNO: But has Shadow Cabinet signed off on them?

WAYNE SWAN: No, Shadow Cabinet has not signed off on matched-savings accounts but they are part and parcel of our discussion about a long-term plan to promote greater equality and to ensure that in the 21st century we do not go down the American road of a huge gap between the haves and the have-nots.

PAUL BONGIORNO: Senator Minchin this morning suggested that one of the problems with them could be the diversion of taxpayers' funds away from other areas of social security.

WAYNE SWAN: It is all part of the balance, Paul. We certainly need to have a balance in terms of our income support policies on the one side, and the provision of affordable health, education, housing and family assistance. For example - the foundation of fairness in this society lies in the quality of care of children in the early years. I, for one, think we should stop putting band-aids over our social security system and make a substantial commitment to the early years. Particularly to policies which provide assistance to young parents. That is one part of the solution. Matched-savings accounts are another part of the long-term solution. Giving people assets, and a stake in the system, is also important.

PAUL BONGIORNO: But if that comes at the cost of looking after carers and of looking after - which we will get to in the next statement - areas of inequality within the social security benefits area, would you oppose it?

WAYNE SWAN: No, we have to have a balance between short-term, medium-term and long-term solutions. You see, we are going down the American road. We are now getting American-style social policies in health, education and housing. We have to do something in the long-term to combat growing inequality.

PAUL BONGIORNO: Time for a break. When we return with the panel - the Government is looking for $600 million worth of savings from the Family and Community Services portfolio. Wayne Swan has new figures on who is footing the bill.

PAUL BONGIORNO: You're on Meet the Press with Shadow Minister for Family and Community Services, Wayne Swan. And welcome to our panel, Karen Middleton, the 'West Australian' and Peter Charlton, the 'Courier-Mail' The Government is on a crusade to claw back millions of dollars of over-payments in the social security area. Karen.

KAREN MIDDLETON, THE ‘WEST AUSTRALIAN': Mr Swan, you are fond of portraying the Government as a bit mean. But surely if people have been overpaid their benefits, they should have to pay them back, shouldn't they?

WAYNE SWAN: Absolutely - I couldn't agree more with that assertion. The problem is, there are people who have been overpaid through no fault of their own, then they are not told by the Government that they have been overpaid. And then the Government either strips their tax return or threatens to sell the house of aged pensioners, or goes along to carers of disabled kids and arbitrarily takes away their carer's allowance. That is the evidence that they are out there slashing and burning the social security budget, not against people who are rorting it, but against honest, hard-working Australians, many of whom have worked all of their lives to make this country strong.

KAREN MIDDLETON: But surely if you have been overpaid, even through no fault of your own, you have got an obligation to pay it back.

WAYNE SWAN: Absolutely - I agree that money should be repaid. It is the heavy-handed, bullying way that this heartless Minister Vanstone - heart of stone - is it out there attacking our pensioners, hard-working families, and carers of disabled kids.

KAREN MIDDLETON: Well, what is heavy-handed about it? What are you complaining about?

WAYNE SWAN: For example, the pensioners who have received bills as high as $20,000, many are people who didn't know they were being overpaid, they have supplied all of the information to Centrelink that they were required, The bungle was in the Government. Because the Government wasn't checking the details and picking up the inaccuracies or overpayments. Now Senator Vanstone's department is ringing up 81-year-old pensioners, and telling them to take out a mortgage on their home, and saying, "If you've got savings, "we'll take 75% of those savings right now." And for many of those people, that's their funeral money.

KAREN MIDDLETON: What, should there be a time period after they have been overpaid one month, three months?

WAYNE SWAN: There should be a humane way these payments are made and stop the bullying tactics. I mean, take the family payments system. 643,000 families, a third of all families, have received debts in the third year of operation. In the second year of operation they stripped the tax returns of 230,000 families without the courtesy of a phone call. 230,000 families is the equivalent of the population of Townsville and Newcastle.

KAREN MIDDLETON: So they just took them out at the end of the financial year?

WAYNE SWAN: Yeah - and didn't tell them. These are people who had planned to spend their tax return on car repairs, or to buy school materials or whatever. And that is the ultimate in John Howard. That's a tax on the tax return. That's incredible.

KAREN MIDDLETON: Well, how do you do it? If you don't like that, how do you practically do it?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, they should be renegotiating more tolerable repayment schedules. But most fundamentally, change the system. Senator Vanstone says they won't change the system because it is part and parcel of all of these savings they are trying to make - the $660 million that were in the Budget last year. They are trying to, if you like, balance their budget on the back of hard-working Australian families, pensioners and carers of disabled kids.

PETER CHARLTON, THE ‘COURIER-MAIL': I want to talk to you about changes to the system in a moment. But has the Government started with a target figure of what it needed to get back out of the social welfare area of the Budget and simply gone to tax returns to try to find that out?

WAYNE SWAN: They should be going to tax returns to check whether they have been overpaid. What the problem here is is that they have automatically stripped the debts without informing the individuals concerned. And those people have budgeted on receiving a certain amount in their tax return. It doesn't turn up. So we've got the ultimate from this highest-taxing government in history - they are now taxing tax returns.

PETER CHARLTON: One of the changes you talked about in the past are tax credits, particularly for those people who are at the upper end of the lower-paid people and getting welfare payments. Can you explain in pretty simple terms what a tax credit is?

WAYNE SWAN: Yes, I certainly can, but first of all I have to explain the problem. Because we have seen this week, from the Prime Minister's own department, evidence that 860,000 families - three-quarters of whom earn between $30,000 and $60,000 a year - now face effective marginal tax rates of 60 cents in every additional dollar they earn. So they earn some overtime - they lose 60 cents. Some low-income families are losing as much as 80 or 90 cents.

KAREN MIDDLETON: Well, they faced that for a long time, and they faced that under Labor as well.

WAYNE SWAN: Well, that's what the Government says, but that's just not true. Because what this research from the Government says, is that the number of people in that category has doubled since the Government brought in the new tax system. That is, since we got the system that was supposed to deliver incentive, supposed to deliver a fair go, the number of people in this situation has doubled.

KAREN MIDDLETON: So tell us about tax credits. How do they work?

WAYNE SWAN: Tax credits deal with that. Tax credits are a targeted tax cut that give relief to low- and middle-income families that are subject to these very high effective marginal tax rates which come from the withdrawal of social security benefits when they work hard.

PETER CHARLTON: A targeted tax cut means that some people get the tax cut and others don't.

WAYNE SWAN: That's right.

PETER CHARLTON: How do you sell that to the entire electorate?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, you don't, because it doesn't apply to the entire electorate. But there are 860,000 families who are in this bind at the moment, who just feel that they can't get ahead. They're not going to sacrifice their family time and do some overtime to turn around and find out that their getting somewhere between 10 cents and 30 or 40 cents. Amanda Vanstone says that that's fair enough.

KAREN MIDDLETON: You do have to sell it to the whole electorate because the whole electorate is going to vote for you or not vote for you. It wants to understand your tax policy - and frankly they don't.

WAYNE SWAN: That's right...

KAREN MIDDLETON: They don't understand your tax policy.

WAYNE SWAN: ..because we haven't released our tax policy yet, Karen. This will be one of our priorities when we do release our tax policy. It's a very important priority, but is not one we hear a lot about in Canberra, because most of the people on very high incomes are not subject to these very high effective marginal tax rates. We've got to talk about it a lot more. These are people that work hard to make the economy strong. These are people we need to work hard. These are people who need incentives and they're not getting it from the Howard Government.

PETER CHARLTON: Wouldn't the electorate prefer a general tax cut rather than a targeted tax cut?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, it depends what is affordable. Because the one point we have made is we're not going to put a raft of policies out there that are unaffordable.

PETER CHARLTON: OK, what is affordable, how much would it cost?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, I can't tell you, because I don't know what the Government has got in the kitty. And they won't tell you either. But we saw reports the other day that the Government had a war chest of $3 billion or $4 billion. We don't know the accuracy of that yet. What we can do is point to problems in the system. Because there is a feeling out there amongst average Australian families, that in the last seven years they have worked harder, but they have not got ahead. And many feel that they've gone backwards. And one of the reasons that they've gone backwards is these very high rates of tax on overtime, plus the problems in the family payment system, which leave them with debt.

KAREN MIDDLETON: Aren't you always going to face this problem where the cross-over takes...

WAYNE SWAN: Yes there is. But the design of the system by this Government has doubled the number of people caught in that trap, that very high levels of tax. What we have to do is design a package which relieves that and gives these people some financial incentive.

PETER CHARLTON: Where does the emphasis fall - do you reduce the taxation or reduce the social welfare benefits - or both?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, where not talking about reducing income support. But what we do need to do is to deal with the crisis that exists in this community in the inability of people now to access affordable health, education and housing. Because that's also the big factor that is putting the family budget under pressure. If you can't afford to take your kid to the doctor, you've got a crisis. The haves and have-nots - we've seen it in the last couple of days - the Government is refusing to fund immunisation of kids. First time in history! If you ever want an example of how this Government is creating a 2-tiered society, that's it.

PAUL BONGIORNO: Time for another break. When we return - a Melbourne Cup field is lining up to be National President of the Labor Party. We ask, does this spell more trouble?

PAUL BONGIORNO: You're on Meet the Press. 11 candidates are vying for Labor's first president to be elected directly by the party's grass roots. Peter.

PETER CHARLTON: Mr Swan, normally the debate over party presidency is one for a couple of weeks before the conference. It looks like now that will run on for four or five months at least. It comes out of the changes that Mr Crean introduced. Haven't those changes been, in retrospect, more trouble than they were worth?

WAYNE SWAN: No, I don't believe so. This is part and parcel of getting the party more engaged in all of the activities - that is, the wider party. I think that is very important. People are alienated from politics. They want to see the structures of their political parties more deeply embedded in the community as well as across-the-board mass of party membership. I think it is a terrific thing and I am pleased we have got that many candidates.

PETER CHARLTON: But it is not going to be a clean, clear choice there is going to be jockeying and politicking and despite all the rules about it...

WAYNE SWAN: Well, that is democracy, Peter.

PETER CHARLTON: It is going to be a fight, isn't it?

WAYNE SWAN: No, I don't believe so. I think we've got some very good candidates and I think it will be a demonstration to the Australian public that we are serious about reforming ourselves. If we can't reform ourselves do they think we are going to be able to reform the country?

KAREN MIDDLETON: Well, one of those candidates is Carmen Lawrence and she said, this week, that she thinks directly electing a president will bring a revolution to the Labor Party. that, potentially, the rank-and-file membership will start to push for other positions to be directly elected and maybe almost the whole National Executive. Now, don't you strike trouble there if you have a range of people who are directly elected and a Parliamentary Leader who is not?

WAYNE SWAN: I think it is always better to ride the wave of change than to resist it. I think it is very important that the Labor Party continues to reform itself. As a Labor Member of Parliament, I think it is urgent, not just for the party but for the country as the whole, that parties, all parties, become more representative of the communities that they ask to vote for them. I think that is terribly important. This is just one small step. So I don't see it as a revolution, but I do see it as a very important step for the party.

KAREN MIDDLETON: But how do you avoid, when you have a directly elected president, how do you avoid that person having greater influence greater sway over policy? Because they can say "I am here because of membership "and I know what the membership wants."

WAYNE SWAN: Because I believe that we will elect people who will behave responsibly. And I believe Carmen Lawrence, and all the other candidates that I personally know, will behave responsibly. I respect...

KAREN MIDDLETON: Have you got a favourite, then?

WAYNE SWAN: I've got couple of favourites, actually, because we can elect three. I think Carmen will be a good president.

KAREN MIDDLETON: Who else?

WAYNE SWAN:,Well, I'm not going down the line.

PETER CHARLTON: Would you ride the wave of change in the direction of the Democrats and have the rank-and-file elect the Parliamentary leader?

WAYNE SWAN: No, because that turns into a debacle. It did with the Democrats, and I think it has elsewhere in the world. But it doesn't mean to say that there aren't other ways we could more involve the party in our leadership - in the longer term, I stress, I'm not talking currently.

PETER CHARLTON: Despite the collective sovereignty of the members of the...

WAYNE SWAN: I think that the Parliamentary Caucus in the federal arena must be master of its own destiny. But what we do have to do is to find better ways to plug, not only the party membership but the community, into its decisions. That doesn't mean giving them a veto over what it does. It is just terribly important for the health of democracy, let alone political parties, that we do that.

KAREN MIDDLETON: One of your colleagues, Lindsay Tanner, who fancies himself as a leadership contender, we understand, has said in the last couple of days that he thinks that Labor has lost its identity. Do you agree with him?

WAYNE SWAN: I had a chat yesterday to Lindsay about his speech and I think it was a good speech. We have been under political pressure, no doubt about that. But Lindsay was pointing to what a number of us have been saying for a while - we do need to spark a national debate in this country about how we restore the traditional Australian ethos of a fair go. About how we implement new measures to bring about greater equality of opportunity. How we avoid the "two Australias" that St Vincent de Paul has spoken about. That's why we've set up, for example, the national inquiry under Senator Steve Hutchins into poverty and financial hardship. This is our light on the hill.

KAREN MIDDLETON: But you've got to actually win an election, don't you?

WAYNE SWAN: Yes, we do.

KAREN MIDDLETON: You have also said in the last few months that you thought that Labor was headed for a train wreck. Has anything changed?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, when you are driving a train it has got a whole lot of levers and it depends on how you pull them, and the levers we are pulling at the moment are the further development of policy and getting our campaign structure right.

KAREN MIDDLETON: So have you changed your view about whether you are headed for a train wreck?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, we've had that debate. What I am involved in doing is putting together the campaign and the policy package which will appeal to the Australian people. There is a deep frustration out there. People want to be rid of this government, they have high hopes for Labor. We have to match those hopes with our behaviour, with our policies, and with the quality of our campaign.

PETER CHARLTON: In your home State of Queensland in recent weeks, polling has been done that shows Labor would lose every seat. Now that's a worse result than '75 and a worse result than '96. Why is it that Labor can do so well at the State level in Queensland, do so well in the Brisbane City Council, and yet do so badly at a federal election?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, because frequently it's tough for opposition. I remember when Peter Beattie was in opposition, and he was facing a pretty tough time. But when he got to government, and he got into a position where people could really see his wares, he did very well. We have just got to get out there and not be burdened by this opinion poll, or that opinion poll, and get on with the main game. The hopes of millions of Australians are on the Labor Party to produce the policy package and the campaign to get rid of this Government.

PETER CHARLTON: Why is it that that opinion poll, an internal Labor poll, appeared on the same weekend as the speculation about Bob Carr's shift to Canberra? Doesn't that indicate a party at war with itself?

WAYNE SWAN: No, I don't believe the party is at war with itself. The party is struggling to find the best combination of all of those factors. We had the leadership debate some months ago - that's over. What we have to do, each and every one of us, those of us in senior positions particularly, is to shoulder the responsibility of putting us into a winning position with a winning platform.

PETER CHARLTON: You say you are struggling to find the combination of factors. you are putting together policies, you have got a national conference next January. What happens if the PM calls an election this year? You are not ready for the campaign, are you?

WAYNE SWAN: I have been involved in the internal policy-making process in the party, and we are ready. And we have already released a raft of policies. In health, in higher education, and we have a raft of policy ready to go should there be an early election. I don't believe there will be, but should there be, we're ready.

KAREN MIDDLETON: Around about the time of the leadership challenge earlier in the year, there was some criticisms from within the Shadow Ministry that the leadership group wasn't sharing all of the internal party polling, that you didn't have full picture. Do you have the full picture now?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, I'm not in the leadership group, Karen, so...

KAREN MIDDLETON: But do the people who need to see this polling have the full picture now? There were criticisms that that wasn't being shared.

WAYNE SWAN: I certainly hope they do, but I'm not aware whether they do or they don't, I'm not sitting on the leadership group. But what I do know is that Simon, and all of the senior ministers in the Shadow Ministry, are concentrating very hard on developing policy and outlining that policy in the community. We had the campaign put in place on health a few weeks ago.

PAUL BONGIORNO: Mr Swan, Mr Swan. Just moving on to one of your pet projects, and for very good reason, that is prostate cancer. Where are you at with your campaign there in terms of raising awareness?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, there is a wall of ignorance in the community, not only amongst men, but also their families, about the impact and size and scope of this dreadful disease. It hits 1 in 10, the incidence is about the same as breast cancer. This country desperately needs an information campaign that alerts men to the fact that they are in danger and when they should be tested for prostate cancer. What we've got to do is shift the mindset of the medico-political establishment in this country that has been holding back important public information campaigns, and that's what I'm continuing to do.

KAREN MIDDLETON: Do you think there's been too much emphasis on breast cancer to the detriment of prostate cancer?

WAYNE SWAN: Not at all. No. Men and women are in this together. In every family they are either hit by one or the other. It is just that there has been too much embarrassment, amongst men personally, about prostate cancer. And men traditionally, across the board, are ignorant of their health. We've got to change that.

PAUL BONGIORNO: What can you do about it when medical specialists don't agree that you need to have a check-up?

WAYNE SWAN: Well, in fact they do - about 90% of urologists agree on the need for men over 50 to be tested. Men who have got a first-degree family history should be tested over 40. They do agree on that. We have just got to break through with the out-of-touch medico-political establishment in Canberra.

PAUL BONGIORNO: OK. We're right out of time. Thank you very much for joining us today Shadow Minister for Family and Community Services, Wayne Swan. And to our panel, Karen Middleton and Peter Charlton.