Iraq War Intelligence, ONA, Higher Education, TAFE, Policy Review Process Jenny Macklin - Deputy Leader of the Opposition Shadow Minister for Education, Employment and Training

TV Interview with Lauire Oakes

Transcript - 'Sunday', Channel 9 - 13 July 2003

E & OE - PROOF ONLY

LAURIE OAKES: Good morning, Jana. Ms Macklin, welcome to the program.

OPPOSITION DEPUTY LEADER JENNY MACKLIN: Thank you, Laurie.

LAURIE OAKES: Now, before we get to education, what do you make of the failure of three intelligence agencies to tell the Prime Minister he's using dodgy intelligence material in his case for war with Iraq?

JENNY MACKLIN: Well, in the end the Prime Minister is responsible. It was the Prime Minister that went into the House of Representatives and told the Parliament that Iraq was preparing nuclear weapons, and was receiving material from Niger. That now turns out to be incorrect information.

What we really haven't got to the bottom of yet is whether or not he is still misleading the Australian people about when he knew and why he didn't correct the record earlier. We also need to know whether or not it's gross incompetence on the part of those agencies for not informing the Prime Minister or why the Prime Minister in his office didn't check either before or after he made those statements in the Parliament.

LAURIE OAKES: Now, in America the head of the CIA has accepted responsibility for vetting the President's speech and not insisting that that section come out. Should Kim Jones, the head of ONA, also accept responsibility here, because ONA vetted the Prime Minister's speech?

JENNY MACKLIN: Well, we should have responsibility taken in those agencies, but in the end it was the Prime Minister that went into the Parliament and told the Australian people that this was one of the reasons that we should go to war. In the end it's his responsibility, and he should have checked.

LAURIE OAKES: So you don't think bureaucratic heads should roll?

JENNY MACKLIN: Well, bureaucrats should be held responsible. There's no question about that. But it was the Prime Minister that went into the Parliament. He was … there was … there would be no doubt that that speech was checked many times before he made it in the Parliament, and if that evidence came further to light after he made the speech, why didn't he come back into the Parliament and correct the record?

LAURIE OAKES: Alright, education. Do you think it's a potential vote changer, especially with the news dominated by national security issues?

JENNY MACKLIN: I certainly do. All the evidence is that these are very big issues for parents, and of course for young people as they're seeking to go to university. The Howard Government is basically saying to Australian students and their families that the cost of a higher education in Australia is going to go up.

They've had a pretty bad week this week. The university of Sydney have already announced that the cost of a degree is going up by the full thirty per cent, so a science degree at Sydney Uni will now cost over $20,000. It's no wonder that parents are saying they're very worried that their students are just going to be loaded up with more and more debt as a result of the Howard Government's changes.

LAURIE OAKES: But isn't universities a bit of an elitist issue? Most Australians don't go to university.

JENNY MACKLIN: Not any more. About forty-five per cent of Australians at some time during their lives do go to university. And of course the big issue for parents is they want their children to have the chance to go to university, and they don't want their children at the end of their time at university to be loaded up with twenty, thirty, fifty thousand dollars' worth of debt. Because that's what John Howard is saying to parents he's going to do to a university education.

LAURIE OAKES: So how would Labor provide universities with more funds and more flexibility if you don't accept the Brendan Nelson solution? If you're going to block that in the Senate?

JENNY MACKLIN: We will block the increased fees in the Senate. We'll also block the decision by the Government to introduce a rate of interest of six per cent on student loans, and we certainly don't agree with the Government's decision to expand the number of full fee paying places at our universities. That's degrees that cost about $100,000.

We don't think that's the way to go.

LAURIE OAKES: What's your alternative?

JENNY MACKLIN: Our alternative, and we've been rolling this policy out since last weekend, our alternative is to put public investment into our universities. To make sure that students can afford it. To make sure that they can get a place. But we would also say to the Australian people it's good for our country, it's good for our economy, it's good for our society, to have a well-educated population.

So we actually get something out of it as a community if we all invest in it. So we will be showing how we intend to fund it. We won't be putting any more pressure on the budget, but we've started to roll out our policy, and we'll show you how we intend to fund it.

LAURIE OAKES: Let me ask you this. Will part of the way you fund it be to cut back on … on funds for private schools?

JENNY MACKLIN: No, it won't. I can say that categorically to you this morning. We'll have a separate policy on schools. We indicated this week in the policy that we announced for TAFE … for vocational education and training … that we would have 20,000 extra places at TAFE.

We intend to fund that by not proceeding with a tax break that the Howard Government wants to give to foreign executives who are here in Australia. That's going to give us $160 million that we can put into our education package. That shows we're willing to make difficult decisions about changing priorities.

We already know this is a high-taxing Government. We intend to change priorities and put additional funding into higher education.

LAURIE OAKES: Well, we're talking about schools. The … the big problem there is obviously a huge teacher shortage. You've got an announcement to make today about …

JENNY MACKLIN: Yes.

LAURIE OAKES: Labor's solution to that.

JENNY MACKLIN:
That's right, there is a very serious teacher shortage. We expect over the next ten years, in fact, forty per cent of Australian teachers to retire. So the problem is very, very serious. Today we're announcing that a Labor Government would expand the number of teacher education places at our universities by 4600 places. That would occur by 2008. We would start that immediately in coming to Government with additional undergraduate places.

We also know that many teachers want to continue their professional development, so we would also create 500 post-graduate places. We announced last week that we would cut the price of a science and maths degree by a third, because we know how desperate our schools are to get more science and maths teachers.

So Labor wants to expand the number of undergraduate places by 4600, the number of post-graduate places by 500, and we'll cut the cost of a maths and science degree by a third.

LAURIE OAKES: Now, the Australian Secondary Principals' Association has said that if nothing's done about the shortage, by 2007 some schools … a lot of schools will have to go to a four day week. Will your policy provide a solution to that?

JENNY MACKLIN: That's why we have to start now, and that's why the Howard Government's solution to this problem is diabolical. There is not one extra place in the Howard Government's higher education package for teachers. Not one extra place.

They're saying they won't put up the price of a university degree for teachers, but what's the use of that if you can't get a place?

LAURIE OAKES: But isn't the basic problem here salaries? I mean, teachers are terribly badly paid, we all know that. State Labor governments do nothing about it, and they're all Labor governments, every one of them.

JENNY MACKLIN: Well, there's a … an enterprise bargaining round going on right now, so negotiations are proceeding on exactly that issue …

LAURIE OAKES: And we've got New South Wales teachers marching in a protest because the offer is less than inflation. It's derisory.

JENNY MACKLIN: And that's what you would expect during enterprise bargaining …

LAURIE OAKES: It doesn't say much for Labor's priorities in education.

JENNY MACKLIN: I think in fact the state governments have been increasing their funding to our government schools, and you'll also see, I'm sure, a resolution of this issue. There's no question that teacher salaries have to be looked at, and this is the sort of argy-bargy that you get when negotiations are taking place.

But it's no good negotiating about salaries if you haven't got the teachers, and that's why Labor's policy, which we're putting forward, of thousands of extra places at university to train the teachers will get more people into our schools, where they're desperately needed.

As I said, not one extra place from John Howard or Brendan Nelson.

LAURIE OAKES: Now, you're in charge of Labor's policy review process. Greg Combet, the head of the ACTU, said on Business Sunday this morning the emerging argument in politics as we head toward the next Federal Election is going to be tax cuts versus services. Is that how you see it?

JENNY MACKLIN: I do think that we want to do everything we possibly can to take the pressure off families. We know that it is getting harder and harder to find a doctor that bulk bills. In fact I had a couple of mums a few weeks ago saying to me they had to pay $58 to take their children to the doctor. So that is putting a lot of pressure on family budgets.

The sort of figures we're talking about that students are having to pay to go to university, most parents want to help their kids get through university. They don't want their children specialising in debt at the end of their university education …

LAURIE OAKES: Is that more important than tax cuts?

JENNY MACKLIN: I think we'll be wanting to look at a whole range of different ways to take pressure off families. We have announced our policy to restore bulk billing. We are rolling out our policies on higher education. We'll be doing the same …

LAURIE OAKES: But you're also voting for those … those very small tax cuts in the May budget. Mr Combet said he would have preferred you to oppose those so the money could be used on rebuilding bulk-billing, on more TAFE places, on lowering HECS fees.

JENNY MACKLIN: We think we can do both. We … this is a very high-taxing Government, and so even though it was a small tax cut, we supported it because we do want to take whatever pressure we can off families. But we know that families are really suffering as a result of the decline in bulk-billing, and the massive rise in the cost of going to the doctor, as well as the cost of education, especially higher education.

I mean, think of the debts that students are going to have, whether it's $20,000 for a basic science degree, or the University of Melbourne wants to charge for full fee medical degree, $150,000.

Now there's not too many students can afford that other than from a very wealthy family.

LAURIE OAKES: Now, before we run out of time, how angry were you that Simon Crean tried to shunt you out of education and back to health at the time of his reshuffle?

JENNY MACKLIN: We talked about the options, and came to the view … I had a very strong view that we were about to release …

LAURIE OAKES: You were angry, weren't you?

JENNY MACKLIN: [laughs] I don't get very angry very often, Laurie, but I had a policy ready to put out. I thought it was good for the Labor Party, and for our policies to get out there …

LAURIE OAKES: So why did he want to move you? I mean, there were leaks that they thought you were under-performing. I mean, how do you feel about that and why do you think the move was on?

JENNY MACKLIN: I think there are some … a few of my colleagues my have wanted some of my jobs, Laurie. That's life in politics. That's all behind us now. I think Simon's very happy that we're rolling out our higher education policy. It's being very well received. So it's time to get on with that job now.

LAURIE OAKES: You see, what I thought was interesting was that he … he tried to shunt you back into health, and he'd spent the whole campaign of the … leadership campaign against Beazley bagging the health policy under Beazley when you were the shadow health minister.

JENNY MACKLIN: I think … I think all that's gone now, and I really want to make sure we stay on the front foot that we're on. I'm very pleased the leader …

LAURIE OAKES: But … but … but …

JENNY MACKLIN: The leadership …

LAURIE OAKES: But when Simon Crean said that Beazley didn't develop the policies when he was the leader, true we said we were for health, but we didn't have a blue print to save bulk-billing and to save Medicare. I mean, that was a huge go at you, wasn't it?

JENNY MACKLIN: Well, I didn't take it that way, because I know what we did take to the last election. We in fact negotiated an agreement with all the state and territory Labor governments to actually deal with the problems in our health system, called the Medicare Alliance.

And I know Simon's a very strong supporter of that policy.

LAURIE OAKES: Ms Macklin, we thank you.

JENNY MACKLIN: Thanks, Laurie.

LAURIE OAKES: Back to you, Jana.