Floggings In Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Iraq, Bali Inquiry, East Timor Kevin Rudd - Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs

Doorstop Interview

Transcript - Canberra - 6 March 2003

E & OE – PROOF ONLY

Rudd: When it comes to dealing with fundamental human rights, the Australian Government needs to lift its game in protecting Australian citizens. The administration of criminal Sharia Law, in this case beatings, to Australians convicted vicariously of offences in Saudi Arabia the Australian Government needs to take this matter up at the highest level. Labor has a position that opposes the application of criminal Sharia Law wherever it is imposed around the world and whoever it is imposed on - whether it is women in Nigeria or Australian citizens in Saudia Arabia.

I've written to the Saudi Arabian Chargé d' Affaires here in Canberra to register our direct protest at the manner in which this has been done. It would be appropriate for the Foreign Minister to raise this matter directly with his Saudi counterpart. Saudi Arabia places high priority in its relations with Australia. Because of that, it is time for Mr Downer to use that relationship to seek intervention by the Saudi Foreign Minister to ensure that this practice stops and, more broadly, that the Australian Government take a stand internationally against the practice of criminal Sharia Law.

On the question of North Korea, there are reports today that the United States is forward deploying B52 long-range bombers to Guam. This report demonstrates the extent to which strategic tensions on the Korean Peninsula are mounting day by day, week by week. We are now at a point of an emerging, substantial crisis on the Korean Peninsula. Anyone who cannot read the signs of that, frankly, has his or her eyes closed. We have a situation in the North Korean area of emerging strategic crisis. We have a Defence Minister, however, whom a little more than a month ago said that North Korea did not represent any threat to Australian national security. Defence Minister Hill's statements about North Korea not being a threat, frankly, each day look less and less credible against what is actually happening on the ground in North Korea and in the region adjacent.

Finally, there are reports in today's press about a confidential UN plan for the administration of Iraq after a war. Let me state unequivocally Labor's policy is that we must at this stage be using all diplomatic efforts and energies to avoid war, to bring about a peaceful solution to Iraq in the remaining time. If that is not possible, then the UN Security Council should be considering what addition collective action is appropriate in order to bring about Iraq's disarmament. If we are faced with the appalling prospect and its aftermath, then our policy is that it would be inappropriate for there to be established any US military protectorate after any conflict in Iraq. It would be entirely appropriate for the United Nations to have a forward role in such matters. But I emphasise, we are still at a stage in the Iraq debate in New York whereby a peaceful resolution to this crisis is still possible, although difficult.

Reporter: You mentioned the word ‘containment' before, is that a policy Labor would entertain?

Rudd: Well Labor has said for the last nine months that there are three parts to our policy. One, a diplomatic solution to Iraq, which means a continuation of past policies of containment of Iraq. That is, ensuring that through a combination of a military blockade and the use of weapons inspectors on the ground that the disarmament of Iraq is achieved over time. If that fails, the second part of Labor's policy has been that collective military action could only be sanctioned by the United Nations Security Council. And the third part of our policy, from the beginning, has been that no case has been made for any unilateral attack on Iraq.

Reporter: On North Korea, do you agree with the US decision to deploy those bombers? Is it being a bit intimidatory?

Rudd: I'm going to seek briefing from the US Embassy later today on the specific rationale for the forward deployment of B52s. When it comes to dealing with the emerging nuclear crisis on the Korean Peninsula, we in Australia have to be concerned about escalation, counter-escalation and counter-counter-escalation. We need to find out precisely the rationale for this forward deployment. But I simply say from an Australian national security point of view, what is occurring on the Korean Peninsula is of direct relevance to Australia's national security. What our Defence Minister has said is that it is of no relevance to Australia's national security. He is plainly, fundamentally wrong.

Reporter: Has the Labor Party further clarified its position on Iraq in that if the second resolution is blocked with one of the Security Council members using its veto power, would you support unilateral action by the United States?

Rudd: What we have said in these remaining days and weeks before the UN Security Council votes is that Labor's policy will be shaped by three factors: the first is Dr Blix's further and we think perhaps final report to the UN Security Council due this weekend. Secondly, Labor will then examine not just Dr Blix's report on this occasion, but the proceeding three reports and what his concluding analysis is about Iraq's disarmament – against the benchmark set for Iraq back in '98, '99. And the final factor is this: the actual content of the Security Council resolution voted on and the content of the vote. These are the three factors which will shape Labor's policy position. It appears from reports overnight that the Security Council will in fact soon vote.

Reporter: Do you have a magic number in mind there for the content of that vote out of the 15 Security Council members? What will it take to convince Labor that the majority is enough?

Rudd: Labor's policy is shaped by these three factors: what is the final report card on Iraq delivered by Hans Blix on disarmament? There is one yet to come, and that is this weekend. I believe Dr Blix will be casting his mind across the entire range of the disarmament questions put to Iraq by preceding UN Security Council resolutions.

Reporter: So if Labor is convinced by the Blix report that Saddam Hussein continues to flaunt the UN resolutions and the resolution fails, Labor could still support unilateral action?

Rudd: Labor's policy will be that when we take our decision, which will be once the UN Security Council votes on this matter, our decision will be shaped on the content of Dr Blix's reports, and our decision will be shaped on the finality of the vote by the UN Security Council. These factors are fundamentally relevant. Let's put all of this into perspective: what's the objectives with Iraq? It is not regime change. The objective with Iraq is its disarmament. That's what the world community has said for 12 years. How are we assessing whether Iraq is disarmed or not is done by Dr Blix. Dr Blix has conducted an analysis. Dr Blix is in the middle of that analysis and he delivers his further, and perhaps final report card this coming weekend. That, fundamentally will shape Labor's view. In addition to how his report card is then assessed and determined by the UN Security Council in what appears to be a vote some time in the middle of March.

Reporter: The Senate Inquiry into the Bali intelligence information. I believe that is on the Notice Paper today. What are the Terms of Reference you have agreed to? What will this cover that wasn't covered earlier?

Rudd: When the Government looked at how to deal with the after wash from Bali on travel warnings, it commissioned the so-called Blick Inquiry by the Inspector General of Intelligence, and the problem that we in the Labor Party have found in that report was how constrained its Terms of Reference were. The Government's inquiry into travel warnings was so narrow that, frankly, anybody could have passed the test. It did not even examine the question of whether the travel warnings adequately and effectively represented the intelligence assessment on threats to Australians. There is a second reason why Labor has initiated this Inquiry in the Senate, and that is that the Government must look at how we can do the travel advisory system better in the future. And not just the content of travel advisories, but how you get that information to the travelling public.

Reporter: Can I also ask about the Timor document that Alexander Downer is going to be signing in Dili today. Are you concerned at reports that it took serious pressure from the Prime Minister on his East Timorese counterpart to get that deal?

Rudd: The tragedy for Australia is that our diplomatic relationship with East Timor right now is in a sorry state. The Foreign Minister's personal relationship with the Prime Minister of East Timor is at an appalling low. It has got to a state where the Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister of East Timor are not talking to one another. That's how bad it's got. Leaving aside the essentials of the gas deal itself, and the economic importance of these two emerging large projects, I'd just say this: Australia's long term security interest is in having a stable East Timor and a good relationship with East Timor. What Foreign Minister Downer has delivered us is a relationship with East Timor which is now under strain, stress and in some danger.

Reporter: But Labor is committed to passing through the Senate today?

Rudd: I spoke when the Bill was introduced to the House of Representatives and stated clearly Labor's policy, which is that we support the passage of the legislation. What we have from Foreign Minister is last-minute, catch-up football to try and repair the damage brought about in this relationship by some genuine explosions of temper by our Foreign Minister in his dealings with his East Timorese counterparts.

Reporter: What are you specifically relating to? What incidents?

Rudd: There was a meeting between Foreign Minister Downer and the Prime Minister of East Timor on 27 November last year. This was an exceptionally difficult meeting where, not only was the content of the negotiation not advanced, but the whole colour of our relationship with East Timor at that stage began to fray. Foreign Minister Downer has plainly lost his temper with the East Timorese. Frankly, Australia's national interest cannot suffer Foreign Minister's losing their temper.

Reporter: Just quickly, the Melbourne man in Saudi Arabia. Would you be lobbying or would you be asking the Federal Government to lobby for his release considering the circumstances of the punishment?

Rudd: The circumstances of his conviction from this distance are difficult to judge. Prime facie based on the reports, it would seem that he personally, under any international criminal standard, is not liable for the offence for which he has been convicted. Not only is the punishment over the top, unacceptable and in my judgement inhumane, but the offence itself appears to defy all normal forms of legal logic applied across the international community. I said before, I've written to the Saudi Chargé d' Affaire and said this is unacceptable, this individual should be dealt with in a proper manner and in my judgement that would mean at this stage his release.